Bathrooms in flats

[PoP]

Just musing over whether bathrooms in flats are plumbed differently to regular houses......

I'm fitting a bathroom suite for someone on a ground floor flat presently. I really can't believe the original plumber got paid to do the job he did, but maybe it's just a feature of flat installations that I haven't previously seen.

Problem 1 is that the hot flow is extremely slow. Reason being that the hot tank has a head of water about 1 foot above the bath, so it almost dribbles out of the hot tap.

Problem 2 is that the waste pipe to the stack is about 6 inches off the ground, and the water level is equal to the top of the bath plughole - so when the bath is emptied it stops emptying at the top of the plughole. Emptying the bath is of course extremely slow.

With problem 2 the situation is exacerbated by the waste pipe being run horizontally for several feet to the stack.

I thought at the outset that I might be able to lower the waste pipe and introduce an incline so as to improve the waste flow. No such deal was available once I'd exposed the pipework behind the wall, I'd have had to do some serious structural work to accomplish that little feat.

Why oh why did the idiot who did the plumbing in the flat originally not use a couple of braincells?

Fscking plumbers.....

PoP

[BigWallop]

The hot water flow could be made a bit better with some 28mm pipe for as much of the run as is possible before connecting to the tap.

Also, is there room for a clamp on boss under the branch on the main waste stack ?

[PoP]

That's useful information - though not for this particular job. Reason being the structural arrangement. It's currently fed from 22mm so I would guess the 28mm would only be marginally better.

As above. I'd have to tear down walls (or at least give them some serious treatment with my SDS drill) to get to the stack. I don't precisely know where the stack is in this flat, though I have a suspicion it is probably at the back of the airing cupboard - with 2 large water tanks in front of it (and 5 control valves with pipe running in different directions) so I'm not about to expose it.

The other issue is that being a flat there are other properties in the building, and I'm cautious about inflicting damage in this arrangement. Bringing down a load bearing wall in a single dwelling might be an acceptable if unlikely risk, but relieving several people of their home is not something that's on my to-do list :)

The clamp-on boss suggestion is good idea though!

Just can't understand how any plumber could get away with such an installation! It would have been so easy to fix these problems at build time. I'll bet the original site manager wasn't up to speed on this development.

PoP

[Ed Sirett]

The reason the bath waste is wrong is for exactly the reason you say - it would have taken some serious work to put right. There must have been a reasonable run for the bath waste when it was new what has changed (the bath has been turned around 180 so the plug is not near the waste? - Odds on I'd say).

Let me guess further we are talking about a 1970s flat, give or take, with a silly set of tanks holding water to give about 0.05 bar at the kitchen hot tap on a good day.

Combi boilers are the solution, or if no gas, electric unvented.

Plumbing in flats is no different from elsewhere except that 30 years ago the industry tried to include the same equipement as for house and then flatten it. Previously the method was to install large tanks at roof level which worked well but requires lots of 'management' when any work need doing.

[PoP]

No, it was the original bath I took out earlier in the week. The lady who owns the flat has had the drainage and fill problems all the time she's been there.

Plus it would be physically impossible to run the waste under the full length of the bath, unless the bath was mounted at least 9 inches off the floor - where the waste enters the wall it comes out and hits the bottom of the bath, so you have to turn the pipe down to get to the trap under the bath! The plumber must have been on chapter 1 of his good plumbing guide when he did this job - or there's another problem at the stack end of the waste pipe (which I can't get to) which explains why it is so high. Maybe there's a big joint or elbow at the stack end which makes this waste mounted so high.

This new bath is a shallow job about 4in lower than a regular bath, specifically chosen because the lady is severely disabled (spina bifida) and needed to have the side of the bath she climbs over as low as possible - I've raised it as far as is reasonable for the installation, any higher and this lady would have extreme difficulty getting in/out.

I'd say that was about right.

PoP

[Haddock]

I my limited experience this sort of thing is standard for a conversion, especially in London. At my current flat, the WC waste was actually on a slight upward slope! Amazingly, it only blocked occasionally. The same bloke must have done the flat below, because nearly two square metres of the inner layer of the exterior wall was demolished to make a small hole for a 110mm vent. This left several joists under a cupboard unsupported in my flat, and it very nearly collapsed when I converted that space into a kitchen...

[usenet]

I think your flat was plumbed by the same plumber as ours, you've just described almost exactly the problems I have at our flat.

[usenet]

The 'feed' side of our flat has been improved since the old system was completely ripped out and a boiler with a flue fan installed. This means that the boiler is now in a much more sensible position than the old one and the feeds from it to the bathroom etc. are reasonable.

Yes, as I said earlier in the thread, this is exactly our problem. The waste stack is in a brickbuilt service duct which is very difficult to access.

Our 'piece de resistance' was the junction-box/timer for the bathroom extract fan. It's in the service duct well out of reach of either of the access panels. It must have been put there and wired up as the service duct was built as there's no way you can get to it now.

[usenet]

I don't believe ours could *ever* have worked well. Bothe bath and washbasin have long near horizontal runs.

Well ours is 1960s I think, but near enough.

Yes, that fixed our 'feed' side problems very elegantly.

[usenet]

Yes, us too, the bath I've just replaced is (I'm pretty certain) the original, as is the washbasin. Neither of them drains well.

[usenet]

Having found we have almost identical problems maybe we can look for solutions together. My thread of a few days ago didn't get very far except some people said that pumped waste isn't totally impossible. If I can find a practical pump solution for the waste that would be good for us, do you think it would make sens in your situation too?

[PoP]

Referring to another thread for a second - perhaps Channel 5 ought to do a program 'Incompetent Professional Installations', instead of the DIY program they are promoting?

Sounds very iffy what you describe.

PoP

[PoP]

Probably, though I'm not sure I'd be up for installing this pump arrangement.

I can just imagine installing a pump on the outflow. This pump increases the pressure on the pipe, which meets up with the stack. Due to a future blockage in the stack everyone's loo, pedestal unit and bath get a huge pile of everyone else's pooh filling up...... ;)

Alternatively, connecting the wires the wrong way round might result in the bath being filled with pooh..... ;)

PoP

[BigWallop]

Saw a DSC (drain cleaning service) so called engineer put a jet washer unit the up the wrong pipe in a manhole. The people in the block of flats were not amused as they got their rooms full of the best smelly stuff. :-)) Oh Boy !!! How we laughed at the look on his face.

[Clive Long,UK]

Just to re-inforce what has been written.

My situation was: 70's purpose built ground-floor flat. Large HW cylinder / tank, heated by electric immersion. Under floor electric heating. All the latest in the 1970's.

It took me two seconds to decide to rip it all out and go for a Vaillant combi. Ever since I have hot water at mains pressure and I reclaimed a cupboard from the water tank. Never regretted the decision

- but I was lucky - I had a great plumber and I had bags of time (he was not instantly available). I think I overpaid for the flat given the work that had to be done to make it habitable.

My parents have a four bedroom house and run that off a condensing combi !!

[Sparks]

The BBC do that - Rogue Traders!

[Velvet]

Oh my, overrun with small furry bears that have a penchant for hunny ;-)

Velvet

[PoP]

Yeah, well, happens to the best of us...... ;)

I bought a Wet 'n Dry aquavac not very long ago. Took it out on a job, went into cleaning mode, blew the dust I was expecting to clean up everywhere. Damn suck pipe fits onto that nice nozzle on the lid of the aquavac...... ;)

So easy to do! Mind you, you do tend to do it one time only.

PoP

[Sparks]

.....try it with a toner vac - not nice, trust me!

[Witchy]

Have they changed the location then? On my aquavac the suck pipe fits into the body of the machine and you only use the lid if you need to blow.....

-- cheers,

witchy/binarydinosaurs