Am I a big softy?

That is a commercial decision that only you can make. First, you need to decide are you out of pocket, or simply not making as much profit as you had hoped? If you are really losing money, it is not something you can afford to do too often and you need to keep a tight control on the number of times it happens. However, if you are simply making a lower profit, the decision is easier - do you want the good will or the extra cash? Only you know which is more valuable in the long term, although I would suspect the good will is.

Colin Bignell

No, you write yourself an invoice and pay it from your training and education budget

In your two cases, I think that sticking valves is an occupational hazard and something that you have to allow for; on the electrics one I think that you do have a strong case for charging for the additional remedial works, though if they are the sort of people you would be happy to work for again it's probably best to put it down to experience, and make sure that future quotes say something like "this quotation assumes that no additional work will found to be necessary when the existing fittings are removed"

It's the trap that everyone falls in to, mate. I did the same things when I first went on me own. But you soon learn to make the money by telling people you charge by the hour, plus any materials you have to purchase on the way, of course.

If you tell them that you estimate a time of half a day to complete, then find things that need remedied before you can complete your job. You fall in to the trap of having said that it will be that long. People only hear that bit. If you tell them it takes as long as takes, they think you are a rip off artist and kick your ass out the door.

The only way to break this cycle, is to tell them that you need to look at the job first. ""If I find anything else when I'm trying to fix this job, do you want me to just do it all, or wait until you see what the problem is, misses?"" Then you say ""If you want to wait until you've seen the problem, then I will have to leave your job to go to another, while I wait for you to make up your mind on it. Is that OK?"" ""You see, I like to get on with things, and most people leave me a spare key to let myself in and carry on with other little bits and pieces they need doing. While I'm waiting, it lets me get their little jobs put right. :-) Is that alright with you?"" Then you say ""I'll call you later on in the evening, to make arrangements to come back and finish off""

Now your customer is thinking two days work at least, at X amount per hour + materials. They say ""No. It's OK. What ever needs done, just do it."" I know they do. I've been there. Lost hours in worry as well as money for my first couple of years. :-)

Go out there and prosper young man. :-) And this time next year, Rodney. We'll be millionaires. LOL

1. Are you likely to get further work (that you want) either directly from these people, or through people they put in touch with you?

1. Do you feel, perhaps because of their circumstances, that they're deserving of your charity?

If the answer to 1 & 2 is "no", then charge them extra.

customers

It's what I call "The rule of Fuckit"

Unforeseen problems can be "calculated" into the time for the job by adding extra time on the estimated time or charging more to cover your ass.

Given that the unforeseen is truly sometimes genuinely unforeseen and you can't predict *everything* that might be different it pays off when you do the job and it takes much less than the original estimate because said unforseens are not there and you can smugly let the customer know that the bill won't be as large as originally predicted and therefore they need pay less. Makes them feel they saved some and will probably ask you back for another job another day.

Mind you some unscrupulous people would just pocket the lot and have that 2 weeks in Bali on the extras ;-)

When you estimate, do you put it writing or is it word-of-mouth? Put it in writing and make sure they understand it is an estimate, not a quotation. Others have said to include something to cover unforeseen work, and you can't afford nor be expected to lose money if something happened that you couldn't have known about when estimating for the work.

Conversely, if the job goes really well and you get it done much quicker, you should think about invoicing for something close to the real cost if you're looking to build up goodwill.

I'd agree with that; an alternative strategy would be that you price up the job according to how many hours you think it will take, then add an x% fudge factor to the figure and quote that as a fixed price. The size of "x" depends on how often and how far you get jobs which overrun, like these two.

But I'd have thought that Colin's way is preferable.

David

Not her problem,you failed to carry out all the jobs on the list. :-)

There is always problems(snags) when approaching electrical wiring regardless if someone just wants lights,switches,sockets replacing and this is something you need to address.

You need to be clear to your punters that any dodgy wiring you come across will be added to the bill as you cannot leave it in that condition. Take a pic of said dodgy wiring if they don't agree then don't repair/fix the dodgy wiring ie you have been asked to replace some switches and nothing more if you come across the dodgy stuff tell them and take it from there.

Why did you replace the joist if you were told it did not need replacing?

As I have no personal experience of providing the type of services you do, I thought I'd look at it from the customer perspective.

If I have faith that the supplier is honestly taking unexpected extra time, I would be more likely to accept an increase over the estimate. Maybe adding something to your estimate like "We manage to complete over

If I believe that the extra time is limited and not an invitation to being ripped off, I would be more comfortable. Maybe some guarantee not to add more than, say, 20% would help?

If the supplier tells me what is happening as soon as possible, that would also be good. So the moment you realise you are going over the estimate, try to tell the customer. On a multijob list you might be able to suggest "I could leave xxx out and keep within estimate"? Sometimes it might be the total bill that is the problem rather than the value.

As a customer I would prefer to get a quote which you then adhere to. My garage, a Renault dealer, operated such a system some years ago. If they managed to complete the job in half the time they gained, and vice versa.

The trouble is, some groups of professionals are seen as being likely to rip people off i.e. garages, builders, solicitors (funeral directors, but no-one ever shouts about them) and some people are quick to lump all members of that group together. Programmes like Watchdog like nothing better than to shout about how X is terrible and preys on little old ladies...and of course, there are some who do.

Also, this kind of work isn't something people have done every day so a lack of comparison doesn't help.

It's not an immediate answer, but if you stick with being honest and up front (I thought Rod's suggestion about telling customers that a job could be more costly as soon as you know that was a good one), if it doesn't go down well and someone tries elsewhere, they'll soon find that your work is actually quite reasonable.

Disclaimer: I am also not in the trade and speak as a customer/ daughter of someone who was so could be seen as talking out of my...

IANAHM but I would have thought that you estimate the percentage of jobs this happens and raise all your prices so they are covered over time and get the good will for finishing them FOC.

I recently had a CU changed. There was a flat charge of £300. This was a lot for mine, as it was straightforward but he had just come from a job where the RCD tripped as soon as the circuits were made live (there bing no RCD on the previous installation). He couldn't leave the customer without ring mains or bypass the RCD so had to trace the fault in an unknown installation. The £300's on the straightforward ones covers the awkward ones.

In our business (which is not building ( but sometimes involves retail customers ) we would always tke the following approach

We try and stick to estimates as much as possible and the customer always gets the benefit of any doubt since firstly it is us who are profiting from the meeting and secondly we are the professionals and it is our business to get it right. We believe that as soon as you start to being perceived as a man who does not complete your side of an agreement your chances of word of mouth recommendations evaporate as you are no longer to be trusted or are believed to be incompetent If the extra work involves you being told that a hearth did not need to be removed then I would ask as a professional should you have been able to look at it and decide if this was true .

We never quote on jobs as hourly but as fixed cost so we can easily take the good with the bad

Whenever I have taken my car in for a service they make it clear that any extra work will be charged, but that they will contact me before carrying it out. Seems reasonable and sensible to me. I want value for money, I don't believe in bargains. When I find a good tradesman/supplier I want him to make a profit, otherwise he will not be available next time I need that service. Having said that if I was quoted a fixed price for a job I would expect it to be adhered to.

One aspect not yet mentioned is consumer law. A quote is a fixed price for an agreed job, and you've no business trying to get more than agreed. The deal is already done, and few customers take kindly to attempts to renegotiate it mid-way. An estimate OTOH is open to a fair bit of swing, and both parties know that - some trust is therefore involved.

Different customers prefer different things, but IME most prefer a fixed quote, and a promise we'll do it for that no matter what. If 20% of jobs take you an extra 1.5 hrs, you simply add 20% of 1.5hrs onto every job you quote and all is well for both parties.

As a customer my patience runs thin when people give a quote then expect a lot more. I've never agreed to pay it, its a sign of incompetence, and rip off tendencies. If they give an estimate I usually dont engage them - some I'll trust but most no.

Its upto you what sort of relationship you wantto have with your customers, but IME the price promise goes down well, and the price hoik tends to meet angry responses. In business you either please your customer or they go elsewhere. So it shouldnt be hard to figure out what to do. Working for people in the busness is a different matter, but AIUI you dont.

NT

Be careful with your terminology. An estimate is a guess of what the cost should be. Your end invoice price can vary from it within reason if the job takes more or less time than you have estimated. A quotation is a binding price, if the job takes longer you can't charge more than the price in your quotation.

Broadly your choices are:-

Charge by the hour Advantage - you get paid for your time. Disadvantages - Unpopular with customers, widely perceived as being a method of encouraging slow work and "added extras". Likely to lead to many disputes.

Give estimates Advantage - you get protected from unforeseen problems. Customer has general idea of what they will be paying. Disadvantages - Unpopular with customers if the final payment exceeds the estimate. Perceived as being a method of encouraging "added extras". Likely to lead to some disputes.

Give quotations Advantage - Popular with customers as they know what they will be paying up front and know you have an incentive to be efficient in your work. If work is done in a satisfactory manner rarely leads to disputes. Good for "word of mouth" recommendations. Disadvantages - You carry risk of quoting incorrectly. Play it safe and bid high and you might lose customers, get it wrong and you lose money.

You don't have to stick to only one method of course. As money gets tighter you may well find that fixed quotations are the best option for most jobs which you can predict reasonably accurately and will bring in extra work. If you are faced with ones with many unknowns you might want to estimate for these.

If you've quoted a price for the job you've no need to reduce the amount if it takes less time than you thought.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the drugs began to take hold. I remember "The Medway Handyman" saying something like:

Rough with the smooth, and on a related note, you'll always run into tight-fisted bastards who ask you to do extra yet seem to think it's free.

If I am doing work which is charged by the hour then I always overestimate to take into account unforseen stuff. If the client accepts my estimate and then the final cost is less then they go away happy

What leaves a bad taste in the mouth of a client is an estimate which is less than the final bill

Occasionally there turns out to be a big gotcha but then it is obvious to me the client and everyone - though as soon as it is discovered I have a cost discussion with the client. Its the little extras which a client doesnt want to see a bill for further down the line

Anna

-- Anna Kettle Lime plaster repair and conservation Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc Tel:    (+44)  01359 230642 Mob:   (+44)  07976 649862 Please look at my website for examples of my work at: