Any Australians still here? Anyone seen any blue sarcochiluses? I read an article in Orchids Australia (from 4/2001) by W D Morris saying that Banks and Woolf tried making blues.. He postulated a method for doing so.
So my question is, has anyone actually made one? Ever see any?
We here in the States don't see the range of Australian orchids you make. For example we rarely see red fitzgeraldiis. So I wondered if this ever really happened.
K Barrett
I've only seen photo's but a few Sarco. Susan flowered blue (more of a pale blue/purple rather than a true blue). The colour doesn't seem to be passed on to Susan's hybrids though. Yellow seems to be the new flavour of the month in Sarc breeding.
I've only seen photo's but a few Sarco. Susan flowered blue (more of a pale blue/purple rather than a true blue). The colour doesn't seem to be passed on to Susan's hybrids though. Yellow seems to be the new flavour of the month in Sarc breeding.
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There was an article in Orchid Australia saying the blue color came from two chemicals (a flavoniod and another one) and they had to both be present in the parental stock in order to pass the blue trait on. And not all parents had both even though they came from the same cross. I admit I don't really understand the article so I may be misstating it.
Anyhow, interesting that yellow is the flavor of the month. Looking at Woolf's page he also has greens & oranges. Yellow is by far the more intense coloration. Looks like Woolf et al have been working on creating these lines since the mid 90s. Now there's a guy who can stay focused on a task, *G*
K Barrett
On Dec 10, 3:22 am, "K Barrett" snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com wrote:
While there may be other anthrocyanins (the main flavanoids that produce red-blue pigments) present in orchids, from what references I can find, cyanidin seems to be the major anthocyanin that produces blues in orchids (eg blue Thelymitra, Vanda coerulea etc). I read through both the Morris article and the Banks and Woolf article that Morris cites. While the Banks and Woolf idea of blue transmisson does seem a bit too alchemical, I suspect Morris's thoughts of just needing the right amount of anthocyanin and co-pigment contributed by different parents is a bit too simplistic. In the case of a hybrid like Susan (falcatus x wenthalii) there is little doubt that both parents contain anthocyanin (how else does falcatus get the red striping on the labellum) and, given that most other Sarcs contain anthocyanin, what is it about weinthalii that makes the wenthalii/ falcatus anthocyanin:co-pigment ratio perfect for producing blue tones that are unable to be replicated in any other falcatus hybrid? Furthermore, how does the blue carry through to James Woolf when the addition of harmannii should theoretically add a lot more anthrocyanin into the mix? No doubt anthocyanins and co-pigments need to be present to produce blue flowers but I suspect the process is a lot more complex (ie, the cell conditions needing to favour the necessary ionic state of the anthocyanin, patterning genes expressing anthocyanin and co-pigment pathway genes in the right tissue, etc).
The colour spectrum of Sarcochilus has expanded dramatically in a relatively short space of time. Certainly they've done well with breeding reds. These days you can buy red breeding line seedlings from quality breeders with good odds that the flower will actually be red. One of the problems with Sarc breeding is that it's difficult to get away from using hartmannii or fitzgeraldii in the hybrids. For all the talk of using falcatus to bring out and spread colours in the Morris and Banks & Woolf articles, falcatus is still not a particularly easy plant to maintain long term. Hybrids between it and the other epiphytic species are not particularly easy to grow (there's not a lot of hybrid vigour when neither parent is vigorous) so you still have to rely on hartmannii and fitzgeraldii not to mask, dilute or centralise the colour.
In the case of a hybrid like Susan (falcatus x wenthalii) there is little doubt that both parents contain anthocyanin (how else does falcatus get the red striping on the labellum) and, given that most other Sarcs contain anthocyanin, what is it about weinthalii that makes the wenthalii/ falcatus anthocyanin:co-pigment ratio perfect for producing blue tones that are unable to be replicated in any other falcatus hybrid?
________ Good question. I've been googling like mad looking up Sarco species. There doesn't seem to be much on anything in weinthalii that would lead to blues, does there? I suspect you are right about the co-pigment pathways, genes turning on and off at the right time, ect. I have a feeling Morris may be correct in that a breeder would need to know the individual clone that'll have the proper pathway that leads to blues.
Ha! You inspired me to look it up: Griesbach's article on Custom Colored flowers he states "One of the major reasons why flowers containing the same anthocyanin can be different colors is pH (Stewart et al., 1975). As the pH becomes more alkaline, the color of a specific anthocyanin/co-pigment complex becomes more blue. All the anthocyanins except pelargonidin have the capability of producing blue flowers (Asen, 1976)." (But I suspect you knew that already.) He also points out several other hybrids (like roses etc) that have managed to increase cellular pH in vivo, and so become more blue....so I suppose that pH change is what weinthalii brings to the table. (??) But what do I know....
This stuff always amazes me, but I suppose I shouldn't be so naive. Breeders look for these traits and encourage them. That it happens so quickly in terms of bench time (ie time from flask to flower) and # of generations. especially in these species that often are difficult to grow or thrive, well, I'm always impressed.
Thanks for making me get up off my butt and do some research.
K Barrett
True, although in addition to the expected white to cream fowers, Weinhart (weinthalii x hartmannii) can also produce mint green flowers. While both parents have spot patterns in concentric rings, one of my Weinharts has spots that are arranged in radiating streaks. It would seem this species has a lot of potential for interesting hybrids traits that isn't immediately apparent in the species.
Weinhart (weinthalii x hartmannii) can also produce mint green flowers. While both parents have spot patterns in concentric rings, one of my Weinharts has spots that are arranged in radiating streaks. It would seem this species has a lot of potential for interesting hybrids traits that isn't immediately apparent in the species.
+++++ Very cool. I stumbled across this article by Roper (a name I see a lot in the hybrid record)I'm just amazed that we don't see more of these in America. I wonder if that's becasue they are cool or coolish growers and - face it - much of the US market is biased towards Florida, Texas, California, & Hawaii and what grows there.
Same with the Australian Promeneas. They are *much* more interesting than what we see here, I think Prom. Crawshayana (sp) is about as adventurous as we get. Heck, I could say the same for Australian dendrobiums. There are many kingianum hybrids that we just don't see here.
K Barrett
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