# Wriring questions

I am going to wire a kitchen which involves adding almost a dozen new circuits. The kitchen is in opposite side of house relative to where the main panel is. I am trying to figure out if there is something I can do to avoid running a lot of Romex wire cables 50 ft from main panel to kitchen. Are there Romex cables with more then 3 wires beyond grounding one? Can I share neutral wire between several 20 A 120 V circuits? I mean can I bring two NM-3 cables into the same box and then have only one neutral wire so I can reuse second cable white wire for a another circuit hot wire?
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Sasha wrote:

Do a search on this ng for: "SubPanel"
Jim
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

Yes; use sub panel but make sure it is all done to code. The sub panel would be fed with suitable size cable and from a double pole breaker at the main panel.

Basically no. Not for normal domestic use. An in commercial work cables with more than three conductors are sometimes derated to carry fewer amps!

No, no, no; you could overload the neutral wire by having it and allits connections carry twice the current it is designed for!
However, assuming you are In North America, there is a form of wiring, to outlets, often and somewhat misleadingly called 'Split outlet', that allows the use of white for neutral, red for one half of the duplex outlet/s and black for the other half/halves. It uses a double pole breakers and 3 conductor, plus ground cabling. It does 'double' the capacity of each particular outlet circuit wired in that manner. AFIK never used for lighting!
But do not try to share neutral conductors they are only the same size as the live conductors which are sized for safely carrying the rated ampere load!
But by the questions you asking I would strongly suggest that you need advice. What you may propose might seem to work but could be dangerous to life and uncceptable to an insurance company or fire inspector. In the event of a fire etc. such 'amateur' wiring could disallow a claim and make you liable! Also non standard wiring could/will depreciate the value of the house!
There are a lot of things that will often 'seem to work' OK, but five years down the road and/or with someone expecting 'normal' wiring could be dangerous. Be careful! It's better value to do things properly.

β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Yes, I know about subpanel, I installed myself 50 A subpanel in my basement workshop. Unfortunately, it is not possible to install subpanel in my kitchen.
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Get a post hole digger, the type that you turn with a cross handle as it goes into the ground, not the style with two halves that you bring together. With one of those and some extension pipe added on, you can dig a hole probably 15 ft deep or so, certainly deep enough to determine if the water level is above or below your basement level. Of course, that assumes you live in an area with reasonable soil, not on a mountain full of rocks.

Firstly I know very little (if nothing about Boilers) but wish to learn and eventually be able to maintain my own boiler myself and this seems a good place to learn how to start.
I have a 'Direct Combination Cylinder' boiler and my white meter heating has recently stopped working (the lower cylinder). I believe this may be the thermostat and I wish to change this myself but havent the slightest clue how to proceed. Before I buy a thermostat Im going to switch my top and bottom ones to see if this fixes the problem (although I will have to wait overnight to find out). Ive also been told to push the reset button before doing anything on my boiler to see if this fixes it, but I cant find the button. I am confident enough to change the thermostat myself, but I would rather ask advice before attempting it.
Please can someone let me know what I should do and in what order? (obviously switch the power off at the mains first) but after that???... (yes I know that little about boilers) :) and also where the reset switch would lilkley be?
I have attached some photos.
Thanks very much for any advice in advance
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Filename: 2.jpg | |Download: http://www.diybanter.com/attachment.php?attachmentidu | +-------------------------------------------------------------------+
--
SCOTT495

β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Sasha wrote:

A *dozen* new circuits for a kitchen? I thought 3 or maybe 4 (not including electric range if you have one) was probably enough. You are gonna fill up your main panel if you're not careful. If you really need that many new circuits for the kitchen, consider adding a subpanel located in or near the kitchen.
You can use use 1 NM-3 cable for two 120V circuits with a shared neutral (it's called an Edison circuit). It reduces the voltage drop when both circuits are in use, and the kitchen countertop outlets are a perfect application for this. You should use a 2-pole breaker, and you have to be very careful how you wire the GFCI's. I would probably run the NM3 to a deep outlet box behind the fridge, and break the circuit out into 2 NM2 cables from there and go to the countertop. Put a GFCI on the first outlet of each cable *after the fridge* and feed the rest of the outlets from the LOAD side of the GFCI's.
Can you run both the dishwasher and the disposall on the same dedicated circuit, or does the latest code require each to have its own circuit now? I'm not sure. Put them on one leg of another Edison circuit, and the microwave oven and a couple of covenience outlets on the other leg, and you should have more than enough juice for the kitchen using just two cables. (I know I left out the lighting.)
You cannot reuse a white wire for a hot wire. There are a few odd cases where the white wire in a cable is hot (like a switch loop), but this isn't one of them.
Bob
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Here is the list of circuits I specified in my permit and got approval for:
1. Two 20 A small appliances circuits. 2. 20 A garbage disposer circuit. 3. 20 A dishwasher circuit. 4. 20 A range hood exterior blower, haloggen lamps and convection gas range circuit. 5. 20 A refrigirator and microwave oven circuit. 6. 20 A recessed lights and undercabinet xenon low voltage lights circuit. 7. 220 V 20 A radiant heat floor circuit.
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

Required by the NEC.

Unless your *local* inspection authority requires it, there's no reason to put these on separate circuits.

15A is plenty.

Don't think I'd put these two on the same circuit. Microwave could go on one of the appliance circuits listed in #1 above.

No need for 20A (15A is plenty), and no reason for it to be a separate circuit, either. This could easily be combined with #4 above in a single 20A circuit.

Even as listed here, that's only eight circuits (7 @ 120V, 1 @ 240V), not "almost a dozen". But as I've noted, you don't need that many. You can easily manage with only five 120V circuits for the loads you have planned.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
I talked to my electrical inspector and her preferrs see dishwasher and garbage disposer on separate dedicated circuits. My microwave with convection oven is 1000W so it is about 10 A, while refrigirator is 6.5 A. I don't understand why I can't out both of them on single 20 A circuit. The range manual says it draws 9 A and blower 5 A so I can put them on asingle circuit but I don't think I can add them to any other circuit. Maybe code does not require this but I prefer putting lights on dedicated circuit so if I once plug-in too much load and breaker goes off I do not find myself in darkness. I did this in my workshop and then thoughout the house.
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Sasha wrote:

Two reasons I can think of. First who knows what your next ones will draw and second I'll bet that frig draws a lot more when it first kicks in. I would want two circuits.

--
Joseph Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

It is also prudent aside from codes. If something on the same circuit as the fridge trips the breaker, you may not know that until the food is spoiled. Also, the maximum load on a circuit is 80% of the rating so the maximum should be 16A.
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

That 80% maximum applies to continuous loads. Nearly all home appliances are *not* continuous loads as defined in the NEC.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Would you mind quoting the post you're replying to? It makes it a lot easier to figure out what you're talking about.

"Prefers" is not the same as "requires". There's no reason, practically, or in the NEC, to have these on separate circuits. It's extremely unlikely they'll be in use at the same time. They are normally located side-by-side. Perfect situation for a single circuit serving both devices.

Startup current on the refrigerator compressor is probably a lot higher than that. If the microwave is already running when the fridge kicks on, it may trip the breaker. Better to have these separate IMO.

That's 14A -- why could you not combine that with other loads on a 20A circuit? If I recall correctly, you said it's a gas range; *very* unlikely that it's going to use the full 9A for any extended period of time.

So put the kitchen lights on the same circuit as the dining room lights, or the living room...
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

Don't some of those circuits (well, maybe 15A version thereof) already exist? Or is the existing wire unsalvageable?
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

why two? i mean if you want to overkill the situation, why not 3 or 4? did you decide you need 2 for some specific reason or just because it sounds good? one should be plenty.

as was said by others, you can probably share these.

split these to two seperate circuits. it makes absoslutely no sense for you to start splitting your kitchen into many different circuits yet insist on putting these on the same one. in fact, if there are two items that i would say you should absolutely seperate, it's these two.
personally, i have my range hood and microwave on the same circuit.

doesnt need its own circuit. put it on the same light circuit as the rest of the kitchen lights.

β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

Why two? Best answer is that the National Electrical Code *requires* two.

Wrong.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

well if its code, its code.
but if you have all the other appliances seperated out i dont see the point...
randy
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

Try running a blender and an ice-cream-machine on the same circut sometime, and you'll figure it out.
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

My electrician set up a similar circuit and put them on separate breakers (that could potentially even both be on the same phase) -- i.e., not a single double pole breaker.
When I challenged him, he said that the double pole breaker is only required if both circuits are connected to a split outlet to prevent shock if you open the box.
Can any of you point to where in the NEC it (surely) requires that you use a single double pole breaker?
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

A double pole isn't absolutely necessary. The main panel is one large Edison circuit. In my house (sigh) that includes a 60 amp fuse on both legs of the mains entering the house. The whole house is supplied by 2 hots and 1 neutral. As long as you have your 'extended' Edison circuit with the hots on opposite legs of the two 110 lines coming in, they can share a common neutral safely. They do not need to share a double pole breaker.
β
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>

## Site Timeline

• ### How to clean up old dead mice?!

• - next thread in Home Repair
• ### Insulating an existing finished basement

• - previous thread in Home Repair
• ### Re: Careful, it's heavy: criticism

• - newest thread in Home Repair
• ### How does a thermocouple have enough power to operate a gas valve?

• - last updated thread in Home Repair
• ### Re: Careful, it's heavy: criticism

• - the site's newest thread. Posted in Home Repair
• Share To

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.