I am going to wire a kitchen which involves adding almost a dozen new circuits. The kitchen is in opposite side of house relative to where the main panel is. I am trying to figure out if there is something I can do to avoid running a lot of Romex wire cables 50 ft from main panel to kitchen. Are there Romex cables with more then 3 wires beyond grounding one? Can I share neutral wire between several 20 A 120 V circuits? I mean can I bring two NM-3 cables into the same box and then have only one neutral wire so I can reuse second cable white wire for a another circuit hot wire?
A *dozen* new circuits for a kitchen? I thought 3 or maybe 4 (not including electric range if you have one) was probably enough. You are gonna fill up your main panel if you're not careful. If you really need that many new circuits for the kitchen, consider adding a subpanel located in or near the kitchen.
You can use use 1 NM-3 cable for two 120V circuits with a shared neutral (it's called an Edison circuit). It reduces the voltage drop when both circuits are in use, and the kitchen countertop outlets are a perfect application for this. You should use a 2-pole breaker, and you have to be very careful how you wire the GFCI's. I would probably run the NM3 to a deep outlet box behind the fridge, and break the circuit out into 2 NM2 cables from there and go to the countertop. Put a GFCI on the first outlet of each cable *after the fridge* and feed the rest of the outlets from the LOAD side of the GFCI's.
Can you run both the dishwasher and the disposall on the same dedicated circuit, or does the latest code require each to have its own circuit now? I'm not sure. Put them on one leg of another Edison circuit, and the microwave oven and a couple of covenience outlets on the other leg, and you should have more than enough juice for the kitchen using just two cables. (I know I left out the lighting.)
You cannot reuse a white wire for a hot wire. There are a few odd cases where the white wire in a cable is hot (like a switch loop), but this isn't one of them.
Yes.... but it probably won't save you much hassle, and may wind up costing more money.
You can share the neutral between *two* 20A 120V circuits, provided that all of the circuit conductors share the same cable or conduit, and you put the two hot conductors on opposite legs of your 240V service and use a two-pole breaker.
Please don't take offense, but I must point out that the fact that you even consider doing this suggests that you don't know anywhere nearly enough to be doing your own wiring safely. Now here's the answer to your question:
No, for several reasons.
First, the National Electrical Code flatly prohibits using the white wire as a hot circuit conductor. There are a few specific, narrow exceptions, but your proposed use is not one of them.
Second, what you propose is highly dangerous. In a properly installed shared neutral circuit, the neutral conductor carries the *difference* in current between two hot conductors, e.g. with 15A in one hot leg, and 12A in the other, the neutral carries only 3A. The neutral cannot be overloaded, because in the worst case (one hot leg fully loaded, the other hot leg carrying no load) the neutral carries the same current as the loaded hot leg. In your proposed situation, however, you have *five* hot conductors sharing a neutral. Even if you have these divided across the two hot legs of your service as closely as possible (three on one leg, two on the other), you could have, in the worst case, the full current of *three* hot conductors carried on the neutral wire. If your circuits are all 20A, you'd need at *minimum* a 6-gauge neutral in order to safely carry the 60A that it might be subjected to.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Yes; use sub panel but make sure it is all done to code. The sub panel would be fed with suitable size cable and from a double pole breaker at the main panel.
Basically no. Not for normal domestic use. An in commercial work cables with more than three conductors are sometimes derated to carry fewer amps!
No, no, no; you could overload the neutral wire by having it and allits connections carry twice the current it is designed for!
However, assuming you are In North America, there is a form of wiring, to outlets, often and somewhat misleadingly called 'Split outlet', that allows the use of white for neutral, red for one half of the duplex outlet/s and black for the other half/halves. It uses a double pole breakers and 3 conductor, plus ground cabling. It does 'double' the capacity of each particular outlet circuit wired in that manner. AFIK never used for lighting!
But do not try to share neutral conductors they are only the same size as the live conductors which are sized for safely carrying the rated ampere load!
But by the questions you asking I would strongly suggest that you need advice. What you may propose might seem to work but could be dangerous to life and uncceptable to an insurance company or fire inspector. In the event of a fire etc. such 'amateur' wiring could disallow a claim and make you liable! Also non standard wiring could/will depreciate the value of the house!
There are a lot of things that will often 'seem to work' OK, but five years down the road and/or with someone expecting 'normal' wiring could be dangerous. Be careful! It's better value to do things properly.
Looks like the technical questions are being answered already.
What I'd like to ask is "why a dozen new circuits"? Damn, I don't anywhere that many circuits in my *shop*, for Pete's Sake, and I can guarantee that the stuff in that shop draws w-a-a-a-a-y more power than anything you'll find in a kitchen.
Sure you don't just want to have a dozen or so new *outlets*? That's a heck of a lot easier job -- just daisy chain the outlets. In general, a couple of
20A circuits for all the kitchen outlets is plenty.
Yes, I know about subpanel, I installed myself 50 A subpanel in my basement workshop. Unfortunately, it is not possible to install subpanel in my kitchen.
Edison circuit (I didn't know how it is called though) is what I was asking about. Using one neutral wire for two circuits. My Siemens main panel can contian up to 60 breakers so I am not worried about this.
When I bought my house three years ago I hired a licensed electrician to install 6 receptacles in my workshop. 1st, 3rd and 5th receptacle are on one 20 A circuit, 2nd, 4th and 6th on another. The electrician ran NM-3 cable from sub-panel though all 6 receptacles putting all of them on single white neutral wire, hot of 1st, 3rd and 5th on black wire and hot of 2nd, 4th and 6th on red wire. Doesn't this mean two circuits share the same neutral wire?
Unless your *local* inspection authority requires it, there's no reason to put these on separate circuits.
15A is plenty.
Don't think I'd put these two on the same circuit. Microwave could go on one of the appliance circuits listed in #1 above.
No need for 20A (15A is plenty), and no reason for it to be a separate circuit, either. This could easily be combined with #4 above in a single 20A circuit.
Even as listed here, that's only eight circuits (7 @ 120V, 1 @ 240V), not "almost a dozen". But as I've noted, you don't need that many. You can easily manage with only five 120V circuits for the loads you have planned.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Yes; this kind of wiring is ok and was alluded to in one of the prior posts, though I think it was called "split receptacle", which really means that in one duplex outlet, one plug is on the black wire and one is on the red. In either case it's also called an "Edison circuit".
It's ok if, and only if, the black and the red are connected to the two opposite legs (commonly called "phases", but purists retch at that) of power in your panel. The AC in the two legs is exactly out of phase and so cancels itself out rather than adding in the neutral. In the extreme case of you drawing exactly the same current - even the full 20 A - on both the black and red, the two cancel completely and the neutral carries no current at all.
In a true split recepatacle, code usually requires that the two breakers be linked so that both will trip if either shorts. In a case such as yours, from what I glean from this group, most jurisdictions do not require this.
If you put a voltmeter between the hot pins of two adjacent receptacles, you should find it reads 240 V. (But code generally prohibits you from installing a 240 V outlet or appliance on a circuit that also has 120 V loads.)
If you find that the black and red are on the *same* leg, you've got a problem.
Yes, so what? There's nothing wrong with that, as long as it's installed correctly. It's having *more* than two circuits sharing a single neutral, using the same size conductor, that's dangerous.
If you don't understand why two 20A circuits sharing a single 12-gauge neutral are safe when properly installed, but three 20A circuits sharing a single
12-gauge neutral *cannot* be installed so that they are safe, you shouldn't be doing your own wiring.
It's not like painting or wallpapering, where screwing up because you don't know what you're doing just makes your house look silly. Screwing up electrical wiring can make houses burn, and people die. If you don't know enough to do it safely - and it appears you don't - leave it to a pro.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
I talked to my electrical inspector and her preferrs see dishwasher and garbage disposer on separate dedicated circuits. My microwave with convection oven is 1000W so it is about 10 A, while refrigirator is 6.5 A. I don't understand why I can't out both of them on single 20 A circuit. The range manual says it draws 9 A and blower 5 A so I can put them on asingle circuit but I don't think I can add them to any other circuit. Maybe code does not require this but I prefer putting lights on dedicated circuit so if I once plug-in too much load and breaker goes off I do not find myself in darkness. I did this in my workshop and then thoughout the house.
A 220 line with neutral (two 110 lines and a neutral) split into to separate
110 lines, both sharing the common neutral. If both 110 lines come from the same leg of the mains it is not safe for them to share a neutral. As long as the 110 lines are from opposite legs of the mains coming in then you're fine. (AKA splitting a 220 line down in to two 110 lines)
If you run two 110 lines from the same leg of the main incoming line you will overload the neutral.
Two reasons I can think of. First who knows what your next ones will draw and second I'll bet that frig draws a lot more when it first kicks in. I would want two circuits.
Would you mind quoting the post you're replying to? It makes it a lot easier to figure out what you're talking about.
"Prefers" is not the same as "requires". There's no reason, practically, or in the NEC, to have these on separate circuits. It's extremely unlikely they'll be in use at the same time. They are normally located side-by-side. Perfect situation for a single circuit serving both devices.
Startup current on the refrigerator compressor is probably a lot higher than that. If the microwave is already running when the fridge kicks on, it may trip the breaker. Better to have these separate IMO.
That's 14A -- why could you not combine that with other loads on a 20A circuit? If I recall correctly, you said it's a gas range; *very* unlikely that it's going to use the full 9A for any extended period of time.
So put the kitchen lights on the same circuit as the dining room lights, or the living room...
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
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