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Wiring up switch w/pilot light.

Another option is a low voltage pilot light - put the transformer on one of the light boxes and run low voltage (like bell or thermostat) cable to the pilot.

Reply to
Clare Snyder
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This was driven by the AFCIs

Reply to
gfretwell

Huh? You must not see much actual construction. In 1 & 2 family, 14-2 is alive and well for general lighting circuits. #12 is only used for kitchens, laundries and bathrooms.

The only place you see "super neutrals" is on 208 3p wye and then only where you have a lot of reactive load. It would actually be 2 sizes bigger too. (#8 on a 20a circuit)

Reply to
gfretwell

IDK where you are, but here in US plenty of 14 gauge all over in new residential construction. Far more 14g than 12g. Why would you run 12g, which costs more and is harder to work with, to support some small lighting circuits, for example? And why would you make the neutral larger? WTF?

Reply to
trader_4

In my housing development, there isn't an inch of 14ga anywhere. All of the

120v circuit breakers are 20a and all of the Romex is yellow, no exceptions for lighting circuits.
Reply to
Jim Joyce

On the surface that might sound good but you usually end up with fewer circuits. The breakers are sized by square footage, not the number of outlets.

Reply to
gfretwell

Yeah, I don't think it's a good thing. For example, the entire M-I-L suite is served by a single 20a breaker. That part of the house includes a living room, a bedroom, a walk-in closet, and a bathroom, all with lights and receptacles throughout. It's basically an apartment inside the house, and the whole thing is served by a single breaker.

Reply to
Jim Joyce

Ouch! Was that wired by a pro? Lights and receptacles on the same breaker?

My house is 1583 sq ft and has 16 breakers. Also have a shit load of receptacles and switches.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

Yes, the electricians are pros, but Fretwell is fond of saying any monkey can get a license. I asked them about the wiring because I've had a lot of electrical issues in the first year and they said that the builder, DR Horton, wants them to do it that way. Take the 3-car garage, as another example. A single 20a breaker covers 3 receptacles on the walls, 2 receptacles on the ceiling for the GDOs, a pair of light fixtures on the driveway and 4 weatherproof receptacles on the exterior of the house. The GFCI on that circuit was way too twitchy, tripping every week or two for no reason, so they changed the breaker and it's been better so far. At my last house, all of that was on 3 breakers rather than one.

All of the houses out here are the same way. I know because I've walked through all of them while they were under construction. We talked about that a while back.

My house is about twice that size with 19 breakers.

Reply to
Jim Joyce

I worked with a monkey that had his electrical license.

Around 1972 I moved into a duplex that had 2 bedrooms, kitchen, living room and bathroom. It had a disconect switch in the kitchen and it had

2 20 amp fuses in it. I don't know how they were wired,but thought that sure was a small ammount. The apartment was built either just before or just after WW2. I do not recall which.
Reply to
Ralph Mowery

I an not sure I ever said a monkey could get an EC license (I only remember talking about "home inspectors") but if that monkey can pass

2 or 3, 100 question, multiple guess, open book tests and come up with the bond and insurance money, they can be an EC here. In some mobbed up union states up north, the IBEW certifies electricians and it depends on who you know down at the local hall. As for how many breakers, the code calls for 3va per square foot of living space so you can see how 20a circuits can quickly cover that area with a minimum of breakers. (one 20 can cover 800 sq/ft), NFPA has added to the breaker count with rules starting in the 70s that now require dedicated 20s for the kitchen (2), the laundry and the bathrooms. Some AHJs also want dedicated circuits for certain fixed in place appliances like dish washers, microwaves and disposals. Obviously some contractors squeeze that nickel as hard as they can, installing a small disposal so it can legally share with the dish washer, stuff like that. I suggest if they cut corners on things like that which are easy to see, imagine what is going on inside the walls.
Reply to
gfretwell

This monkey only had to take the North Carolina electrical test 3 times to pass it. You should hear some of the stories he told on himself of the things he tried to do and how the 'sorry' inspector turned him down.

I don't know how he made it at work with some of the things he did, but there were some other electricians in the plant that were just as bad. Being in the plant we did not need to be licened.

After he retired from the plant, he went to work at a nursing home. Something was spilled on the floor inside a builden and he used gasoline to clean it up. That was before someone saw him and fired him for being that stupid.

Reply to
Ralph Mowery

Believe it or not, some residential slash commercial establishments have a high-leg conductor from a 120/240V 3 phase where an exit sign and an outlet (and flood light?) can be attached to 277v lighting (for emergency reasons).

Reply to
bruce2bowser

A lot of people choke on tests. I don't really have that problem. If I just had to pass a test I could be a doctor, a lawyer and an indian chief ;-)

Reply to
gfretwell

Huh? The high leg on a 240/120v center tapped delta is 208v. You get 277 from 480v wye. (L/N)

Reply to
gfretwell

I checked w/local supply houses and they wanted $150 for 250' of 14/4 wire. Found it on HomeDepot site for $83 (free ship to store). Inside the the box the 2nd switch controls a light literally 20" from the switch, I could easily get a neutral from there. Leaning back toward just running 14/3 back to the light 70' away. Seems kind of ridiculous to run a neutral back 70' to run a neon lamp ? I will setup the switch on the workbench and measure the amperage that the pilot lamp draws.

Reply to
sidwelle

Are you saying the problem is that neutral is not on the same circuit? If so, how about changing the wiring so that both are on the same circuit? May not be possible for a variety of reasons, including that you might need two because of the loads. But if it's just some lights or similar, the loads may be small and maybe you could rewire all or part of it to be on the circuit with the pilot light and then use that neutral.

Leaning back toward just running 14/3 back to the light 70' away. Seems kind of ridiculous to run a neutral back 70' to run a neon lamp ? I will setup the switch on the workbench and measure the amperage that the pilot lamp draws.

I wouldn't bother, unless it's some mega pilot light, 14g is plenty and it's a 15A circuit.

Reply to
trader_4

I was listening to someone explain why a conductor from the 277 orange b phase from the ceiling went to an exit sign and an outlet that the maintenance man would know to use in an emergency.

I saw this online awhile ago: "If you DO read 277V Phase to Ground at some point down stream, that does NOT automatically mean it is Wye secondary. There are a myriad of reasons why your meter may read 277V on an ungrounded Delta system. -Jul 11, 2017

Reply to
bruce2bowser

You are still not getting 277 from a center tapped 240/120 delta.

Ungrounded systems are exceedingly rare and come with a whole lot of extra precautions. Generally it will only be supplied to a factory with some extremely critical process and it would only serve that process. There will be a grounded service for everything else. Glass plants are one example I have heard about. If that process stops with glass in the pipe, you will be rebuilding the plant.

Reply to
gfretwell

I guess I've never tried out a 120v outlet wrongly wired up to 277v lighting, but, I know some of these 120v outlets are putting out 277v and that's the only explanation as to why. This is former commercial property (480 having 277 to balance) that is now residential. As per code 210.9 exact quote: "Branch circuits shall not be derived from autotransformers unless the circuit supplied has a grounded conductor that is electrically connected to a grounded conductor of the system supplying the autotransformer". So I guess it's all legal if there's a $100 dollar or so autotransformer between the two.

Reply to
bruce2bowser

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