Wiring question

No, I'M NOT giving the green light. I'm just trying to correct the ASSumpions a lot of electrically semi-ignorant people have re: electrical safety.

It is NOT a good idea because it is against code - and that is basically because of what else COULD be done in the future.

The actual safety of the installation is NOT a serious issue.

And if the OP wants to cheat, there is a MUCH simpler way than installing another orphan neutral. No extra wires required - just as safe, and just as much against code - but no chance of a future installation making it more unsafe.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to do it, because it is not proper - but it WILL work, and it WILL be safe, and it IS dead simple.

How do you like THEM bananas??

Reply to
clare
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I say because you don't even know what X10 switch he's actually using, you are making assumptions about how much current that switch could send down the neutral. It takes as little as 30ma to kill someone. I sure wouldn't be proclaiming it safe based on guesses as to what the current coming out of the switch which has a relay that gets energized might be. Those X10 switches are made in China and I'll bet they do not even spec the current, so it could be anything and vary from one manufacturer to another.

Reply to
trader4

If it's current stuff I just gave you the two alternatives.

If it's X-10 it's X-10. If it's GE or whatever, it's not X-10.

Reply to
clare

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Reply to
Robert Green

The NEC is not universally accepted by nearly every jurisdiction in the U.S. It is modified based upon common sense and what has been effective for 30-40 years. Try to get info as to number of fires prevented by AFCI's and you meet a stone wall. How many code mods by manufacturers vs. inspectors/contractors? About 99 to 1. I was on code review committe in a major metro area for 5 years and some of the proposals were laughable.

Reply to
Anthony

No one ever said the entire NEC is universally accepted by every jurisdiction. The issue at hand however is stealing a neutral from another circuit. That is a very basic part of the NEC and has been prohibited for good reason for a very long time. Was stealing a neutral allowed in the jurisdiction where you were on the committee? Can you show us one jurisdiction where that rule has not been adopted? I'll bet you can't and even if you can, the rule would still cover virtually everywhere else in the USA and I also bet it covers Ivan.

If we start accepting the idea that even the most basic parts of NEC are going to be jurisdiction dependent, then no one can answer most basic electrical wiring questions here at all. It amazes me how people will debate such a basic code provision, muddying the waters and try to give some credence to an unsafe practice which a novice might then use as a green light to go ahead and do.

Reply to
trader4

The NEW building the insurance office I work for every morning moved into a year ago has all kinds of "orphan" neutrals. - and it passed inspection that way. Not saying it is right.

And all Ivan needs ie ONE incandescent on the circuit. A 7 watt bulb is more than adequate - a standard incandescent night-light (not one with a photo-cell) will do the job (or has for a friend of mine usinf the "incandescent only" switch in his basement full of flourescent bulbs.

Reply to
clare

Sometimes you find strange things. I inspected an office suite for changes requested by a new tenant and I found that the 277V. fluorescents were fed with one wire and connected to the to the steel structure for the neutral. Needless to say, I contacted the city and the entire building was declared unsuitable for tenancy. While the EC that was hired for repairs was working, the building actually caught fire in another suite. Some folks will cheat at anything if they think they can make a buck and to hell with safety.

Reply to
Usafretcol

Why? What would cause someone to do that?

It wasn't. I'd still like to know how to easily check for crossed neutrals in a house that I want to buy. Standard outlet tests (with those little LED testers) revealed nothing wrong with the house that I bought that had several crossed neutrals.

How do you accomplish that in the typical wall switch/ceiling fixture w/single ceramic socket arrangement? The only thing I can think of is a Y-socket splitter with a CFL in one socket and the night light in another. Not very good light distribution but it might work if the fixture is large enough. Hmmm. I might try that tonight. Some overhead fixtures are two and three bulb units. I wonder if a nightlight in one of the extra sockets would do the trick? I might even try that experiment tonight if I have the time.

-- Bobby G.

*HARTSOCK, ROBERT W. Rank and organization: Staff Sergeant, U.S. Army, 44th Infantry Platoon, 3d Brigade, 25th Infantry Division. Place and date: Hau Nghia, Province, Republic of Vietnam, 23 February 1969. Entered service at: Fairmont, W. Va. Born: 24 January 1945, Cumberland, Md. As a wounded enemy soldier fell, he managed to detonate a satchel charge he was carrying. S/Sgt. Hartsock, with complete disregard for his life, threw himself on the charge and was gravely wounded. In spite of his wounds, S/Sgt. Hartsock crawled about 5 meters to a ditch and provided heavy suppressive fire, completely pinning down the enemy and allowing his commander to seek shelter. S/Sgt. Hartsock continued his deadly stream of fire until he succumbed to his wounds.
Reply to
Robert Green

Laziness, stupidity, and ignorance come to mind as the most obvious explanations.

And it won't, either. There is no easy way to check.

Reply to
Doug Miller

No idea, but the live and neutral wires didn't all get into the right conduits when the wires were originally pulled in.

The electrician we called in to do some modifications was also asked to "map" the circuits on the 4 panels in the building - and in so doing determined there were crossed up neutrals. He said it was up to us - we could spend the money to get it ALL figured out and make it right, or he'd just pretend he didn't see it, because he wasn't about to tangle with the inspectors and convince them they made a mistake in the inspection....

He said it's no big thing, as long as the neutrals stay connected - just about every outlet or switched string of lights is on it's own breaker - split between 4 LARGE panels throughout the building.

Reply to
clare

Because ELECTRICALLY, there is no difference as long as nothing goes wrong. You need to physically disconnect and separate all the neutrals and then check for interconnection between circuits - one at a time, in every possible combination, to find it. Or load each circuit, and energizing each circuit sparately, check each neutral to see if the neutral corresponding to the line - and ONLY the neutral corresponding to the line, is "live" - while all neutrals are physically disconnected.

Only other way is to physically trace back all the wires - an even BIGGER job.

Reply to
clare

I would think a relatively easy test would be to put in a GFCI breaker, temporarily at least, in each breaker slot. GFCI's include a circuit which places a small test voltage on the hot and neutral simultaneously to detect if there is a short between the neutral and ground anywhere in the circuit. That GFCI would also trip in the case where the neutral is either not for that circuit, or crosswired with another neutral because it would look to the GFCI just like a short between neutral and ground.

Reply to
trader4

Electrically there is a difference. It shows up on systems that have metal raceways. When you run power conductors with the neutral, the magnetic fields cancel. If you run the neutral through a different metal raceway you get inductive heating.

Reply to
Metspitzer

I'm sure you could see that difference with a TDR, also.

Reply to
krw

Well, that's something most homeowners or real estate agents aren't going to allow. I got bad enough looks from homeowners running around their houses unplugging things from outlets so I could plug in an outlet tester. One homeowner only agreed to that when I said I would have my wife film all the testing and give him a DVD to show others and perhaps save him a plug in/plug out session. I actually feel better knowing that short of massive work at the panel, I wouldn't have been able to catch the few "crosspulled" neutrals that I had.

That won't be happening any time soon in any house I'm buying. (-:

-- Bobby G.

Reply to
Robert Green

Reading that actually made me squirm in my chair. Non-electricians seem to have a very odd understanding of the true relationship between neutral and ground. From that error all manner of kludges flow.

Nothing like a little fire to confirm your diagnosis that something's not quite right with that building.

One of the most outrageous examples I ever came across was a federal contractor who was installing a fire sprinkler system WITHOUT PLUMBING! They just attached the heads to the ceiling panels hoping they might never be inspected or tested. Never underestimate what a person or company will due when they're facing bankruptcy. I'm waiting for some serious disasters to occur because safety is often an area quite prone to panic-style cost cutting.

-- Bobby G.

*HIBBS, ROBERT JOHN Rank and organization: Second Lieutenant, U.S. Army, Company B, 2d Battalion, 28th Infantry, 1st Infantry Division. Place and date: Don Dien Lo Ke, Republic of Vietnam, 5 March 1966. Entered service at: Des Moines, Iowa. Born: 21 April 1943, Omaha, Nebr. G.O. No.: 8, 24 February 1967. He prepared his men for an oncoming Viet Cong onslaught by placing 2 mines in their path and, when the insurgents were within 20 feet of the patrol's position, he detonated them, wounding or killing half of the enemy company. Learning that a wounded patrol member was wandering in the area between the 2 opposing forces and although moments from safety and wounded in the leg himself, he and a sergeant went back to the battlefield to recover the stricken man. After they maneuvered through the withering fire of 2 Viet Cong machine guns, the sergeant grabbed the dazed soldier and dragged him back toward the friendly lines while 2d Lt. Hibbs remained behind to provide covering fire. Armed with only an M-16 rifle and a pistol, but determined to destroy the enemy positions, he then charged the 2 machine gun emplacements and was struck down. Before succumbing to his mortal wounds, he destroyed the starlight telescopic sight attached to his rifle to prevent its capture and use by the Viet Cong.

(Sorry for the length, some of these citations just can't be edited down to a paragraph.)

Reply to
Robert Green

No, it would not - as ALL neutrals are connected. The only way the GFCI would trip is if there is a problem in one of the neutrals -if even then.

Try it some time. Wire up a couple of circuits on a test board and plug it into an outlet. Have 2 "circuits" on the test board, and cross the neutrals. Put a GFCI on one or both circuits ant test to your heart's content.

Reply to
clare

PARDON?????? How is it goiung to know the neutral is crossed if both neutrals are running in the same raceway with both powers? When you have 20 circuits running in one raceway or conduit is when the neutrals DO get crossed. I'd really like to see you determine which circuits have "crossed neutrals" bu sensing and measuring either the magnetic field or the inductive heating - even if the two circuits are NOT in the same raceway or conduit.

Reply to
clare

If the loads on both circuits are identical, it won't. But consider two circuits, A and B. One conduit contains A's hot and B's neutral; a second conduit contains B's hot and A's neutral. Now load A at 30A and B at 10A. There's a net 20A current in each conduit.

If they're all in one conduit, you can't. If they're in different conduits, it's simple: don't load them the same.

Reply to
Doug Miller

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