Maybe they do that where Minnie shops, but not the places I shop. If it were just punching in new numbers then explain why the capacities of the batteries with the longer warrantees are larger or in some cases the number of plates and the weights are different.
I no longer recall where I encountered this, but I distinctly remember the battery having been already taken off the shelf or brought from the storeroom, and *after that* I was asked how long a warranty I wanted.
Of course it is possible to find batteries with different capacities and different CCA ratings and perhaps correspondingly different warranty periods -- and that may even be the more common situation -- but I do not believe that it is universally and necessarily so
MB
On 01/06/04 08:49 pm George E. Cawthon put fingers to keyboard and launched the following message into cyberspace:
"George E. Cawthon" wrote
I'm glad you agree, and there was no trick question. Speaking of different terms..... my industry isn't allowed to use the word "pure" unless we speak to microbiological content. And soft relates only to hardness content. Sorry, that's the way it is from residential to commercial to industrial water treatment. But take another stab at defining what was actually said; over-softened.
Ion exchange softening increases the TDS (total dissolved solids) of the water very little. And it's not corrosion of the anode rod that causes the glass lined steel tank to rust through.
Gary Quality Water Associates
((Snipped))
Sorry for disputing you, but I've never seen it or heard of it and I've bought quite a few batteries at a lot of different places. In fact, the only auto item I know of where you buy different length warranties and the item doesn't physically change is extended service warranties on vehicles.
Various industries and disciplines do use terms differently but their spokesmen should know the difference. No ordinary person thinks pure water refers only to lack of biologics. Shoot, "Have some pure water son, sorry it full of DDT and every other insecticide. I suppose your industry doesn't concider acidity either, so here is my last gasp. Maybe over-softened means too basic, but I would think that rusting would be more associated with too acidic.
Over softened is sort of like over-stopped, except everyone know what stopped means, and few people really know what softened means and if they did they would say, "What the hell!" But to reduce corrosion to zero in drinkable water, you essentially have to use pure water. Well, the anode is there to prevent the tank from rusting through, preventing or lack of preventing is the cause of the rusting.
BTW, where does all that damn salt go?
"George E. Cawthon" wrote
Are you saying I don't know the terms of my industry? The ordinary person of today pays little attention to correct terminologies and make up their own as they go. Who was it that said pure when we were speaking about oversoftening?
Using your definition of the word pure, or at least its usage today, the water that my industry can call pure is deionized water at 18 megohms.
To prevent corrosion, we look at the causes and if there are any in the water, we buffer the acidity, reduce the DO and CO2 content along with the chlorides and sulfate, H2S and go on. None of them have anything to do with purifying water BTW. Even in the terminologies applied by the common folks, they see purifying as filtering and then usually, that means removal of chlorine, anything floating in the water or otherwise smelly. They mostly don't mean the other A-Z thingies found in water because many don't know of them; that's usually due to them not reading and having attention spans measured in seconds. All due to their life style choices of making every penny they can so they can qualify for more credit and have more 'things' and simply not having enough time, or energy.
The vast majority of the 'salt' goes into the drain line and out to drain.
7.85 mg/l per each 10 gpg of compensated hardness exchanged is added to the water.Gary Quality Water Associates
Hey Gary,
Been watching this one for a while and just couldn't keep my hands off the keyboard any longer. ;-) I'll throw my 2 cents into the air and then revert to lurking again.
Oversoftening in my mind is bring the calcium content of a water to zero, i.e. exactly what an ion-exchange softener does. From my POV as a public utility water provider, this is similar to jumping out of the skillet of extreme hard water and into the fire of 'oversoftened' water. Both extremes create their own problems. If a customer *wants* soft*er* water (IMHO very few actually *need* soft water) they can install a diverter around the softener to meter some unsoftened water back into treated stream thus lowering the hardness to a manageable level without 'oversoftening'. Most systems even have the diverting plumbing already in place, lacking only the metering valve.
Really Gary, sometimes ya gotta think outside the box... or resin tank as the case may be. ;-)
(I'm not even going to touch where the salt goes... this time anyway. My folks still have rotting stumps where the beautiful blue spruce and shag-bark hickory use to grow.)
David Thomas Senior Analyst
Sorry to post a follow-up so quickly but thought of this just as I hit the 'Post' button.
Did a quick search and came-up with the following "Hardness" table. (Saw several but just closed my eyes and grabbed one.)
0 to < 70 PPM (Very soft water) 70 to < 140 PPM (Soft Water) 140 to < 210 PPM (Medium Hard) 210 to < 320 PPM (Fairly Hard) 320 to < 540 PPM (Hard) 540 PPM and above (Very hard)According to this, my water ranges between 'Soft Water' and 'Medium Hard' i.e. 120-175 ppm Total Hardness as CaCO3.
Interesting that your industry, Gary, only has one definition for 'Soft Water' while everyone else uses ranges... but then everyone else isn't trying to sell softeners. [$cha-ching$] ;-)
David Thomas Senior Analyst
I didn't say that about terms, I said every industry has their own terms. Yep, the ordinary person doesn't know much. I didn't say that.
Not my definition of pure. Pure water is what you have when you triple glass distill water. Like the term Chemically Pure (CP)
I agree, most people don't know about all the a-z thingies but they assume that filtering removes all the harmful stuff.
That's not a lot but how does that compute in ppm of sodium for a fairly hard water?
Humm, I think you dropped a decimal there Gary. That or 'compensated hardness' isn't measured as CaCO3.
Molcular weight of CaCO3 is 100 while Sodium is 23. Two Sodiums are exchanged for every Calcium so the exchange ratio is 46/100 or 0.46.
10 gpg multiplied by 17.1 ((mg/L)/gpg) gives a 'compensated hardness' of 171 mg/L, multiplied by our exchange ratio of 0.46 gives 78.7 mg/L of Sodium added to the water, not 7.8. You missed the correct answer by a factor of ten.I sure hope you don't do that on your invoices. ;-)
David Thomas Senior Analyst
M> >
RB, I'm sorry but I never saw your original post and the attachment link in this response post does not exist for my Google newsgroup browser.
I'm not at all surprised the doctor was rusty on basic chemistry. He's been dealing with higher order biological reactions for so long, it's like the physicist who has to use a calculator to find the sum of two plus two. His mind is just operating on a different level. ;-)
I agree, but RB's paper indicated about 76 mg/l of sodium for moderately hard water. Many of those patients would eat a can of soup that had ten times as much sodium and never give it a thought. Much like the person with a hole in his throat still smoking cigaretts. Besides, how many people drink a two liters of water a day?
I'm not convinced that following the maximum recommendation of salt will have much beneficial effect, especially compared to the potential bad side effect of low sodium.
Actually you give too much credence to doctor's original knowledge of basic chemistry. Many never understood it; but you are right most forgot it because it (especially physical chem) really has little to do with what they do.
"David Thomas" wrote
Spoken just as I would expect from a long term water company employee where the water you're selling the once unsuspecting public is very hard. All the while saying it's good for them and they shouldn't complain.
As I told you a few years ago. If the discharge from any water treatment is directed at vegetation, expect it to not do well, and die. If the vegetation is wanted, the direction of the water should be redirected to another location, minus any wanted vegetation of course.
You're welcome to return to lurk mode now.
Gary Quality Water Associates
"David Thomas" wrote
You oughta be.
Why don't you tell us what industry and association publishes and uses that chart. It certainly isn't commercial or industria type folks or the water treatment industry. Actually it isn't anyne that needs quality water for whatever thier intended use.
Name us other industries that use your chart and would agree with your personal preferrence for hard water when they need to improve their water quality.
Gary Quality Water Associates
"George E. Cawthon" wrote
I see where I have a typo above concerning the 7.85 mg/l sodium added per each 10 gpg.... it should say 7.85 per each 1 gpg. Sorry about that. Skim milk has 530 mg/l per 8 oz glass. Those under sodium restricted diets count their sodium intake and know how to keep it under their personally acceptable levels per day. Many common foods and beverages have much more sodium than say 20 gpg water that has been softened by ion exchange water softening. Also, getting much sodium into the blood stream by drinking water containing sodium is at best very questionable.
Distillation is not commercially viable as a solution to treating water to "pure" quality water, and without carbon filtration, certain things found in supposedly potable water will not be removed by distillation; such as gasses and volatile chemicals.
Gary Quality Water Associates
"David Thomas" wrote
See my reply to George above. And check your formula or math. It's 7.85 mg/l per each gpg.
Gary Quality Water Associates
It was/is a .doc file attachment of an article he wrote concerning the subject of sodium in softened water.
Gary Quality Water Associates
According to the statistics, most everyone *consumes* the equivalent of two liters a day. ;-) This includes the moisture found in your bread, meat, etc. which obviously didn't come out of your water tap. However, the water used to reconstitue that can of soup, in that cup of coffee, etc. may very well have come from your tap. The volume of two liters is simply used as 'worst case' and levels the playing field.
The body has a great way of elementing excess sodium, I agree. I believe (though I may be wrong) that sodium restricted diets are an attempt to lower the bloop pressure by lowering the consumption of fluids, i.e. eating high sodium foods makes us thirsty as the body needs the fluids to rid itself of the excess sodium. My uncle was placed on such a diet and does monitor and attempt to minimize his sodium intact. I don't offhand remember what his daily allowed sodium intact is, but I'm pretty sure two liters of ion-exchange softened water would put a fair dent in it. A dent he might prefer to exchange for one salty french fry.
;-)
You miss the mark by a factor of ten and you want to argue over a couple of decimal points? OK, fine.
Going out to three decimal places in my calculation (CaCO3 = 100.088,
2Na = 45.980) and using your 1 gpg correction ( 1 gpg = 17.118 mg/L), the mathematically accurate value would be 7.864 mg/L of sodium added for each 1 gpg of hardness exchanged. The scientifically correct process of altering the number to two decimal places in this case is to round down thus giving an unbiased 7.86 mg/L... not that this really matters, but you wanted to argue the point.As for where the hardness chart came from, sorry but I didn't bookmark it. The one I presented appears to use multiples of ~70 ppm between ranges. I've seen others that use 60 ppm and stop at 180 (including one medical paper linking soft water to higher incidents of cardiovascular fatalities in men over 50, but I'm sure you'll argue this only applies to *naturally* soft waters and not your ion-exchange soft water... sure as shoot'n).
0 - 60 ppm (Very Soft) 60 - 120 ppm (Soft) 120 - 180 ppm (Moderately Hard)One comment on "where does the salt go". A little hard to redirect the output of a spetic tank, don't you think? People on septic tanks, please note. The salt load the softener dumps into your septic system (think of all those pounds of salt you hauled into the basement last year) may not hurt the bugs inside the tank (Gary even has one study, paid for by his association of water treatment salesmen, that says the salt is good for the tank) but it sure can kill the vegatation within the discharge plume of the lateral field.
Oh yes, one last thing... Nice to hear from you again, too Gary. (I know you've missed the sound of my [$cha-ching$] so.) ;-)
(I got a load of quarterly check samples just in so will be returning to lurk mode now.)
David Thomas Senior Analyst
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