And per the laws of physics, once again, if you have COLD water going
into the humidifier, more of the heat from the furnace will go into
heating that water than if it were hot water entering the humidifier.
There is no free lunch. The heat has to come from somewhere, either
the water heater or the furnace.
No you don't.
It has nothing to do with a lower thermostat setting. It has to do
with the fact that to get water to evaporate in a humdidifier, energy
has to come from somewhere. Either it all comes from the furnace
with cold water, or if you use the water heater to heat the water
first, part of it comes from the water heater.
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:28:53 -0800 (PST), firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
You are so like a typical EE. Love to argue. Love to split hairs. What
you are talking about is miniscule, not even worth the mention.
I will however tell you that running hot water for the humidifier
makes the water heater cycle on. Running my furnace for 10 more
seconds because of that cold water I use isnt going to change my bill.
Would you like to do another experiment on that one?
Then why did you mention it? You're the one that claimed using hot
water from the water heater for the humidifier made a difference by
using more energy. I only pointed out that the water gets heated one
way or the other anyway, so it doesn't matter. Either by the water
heater or by the furnace, so energy wise, it's not worth the mention.
You do the experiment. Go look at your gas meter and see if it the
little wheels turn for the last 10 seconds the furnace is on. I'm
betting that they do, which means that your bill is changing. But
then, in the strange universe you apparently live in, with it's own
laws of physics, who knows?
On Wed, 28 Jan 2009 04:15:17 -0800 (PST), email@example.com wrote:
Why? Because you seem to be having a bit of trouble grasping the
concept of reality.
Because it DOES matter you dolt. Its not at all to this extreme but
I'll see if you can grasp this concept.
You want to heat two ounces of water in a cup. You zap it with a mini
torch like one used to solder pipes. 30 seconds later, the water is
warm. How much did that cost in fuel? Again, nothing worth mentioning.
Now, take that same cup and put it behind the jet engine of a 747 and
run it for 30 seconds. Care to take a guess at what that just cost
Certain things can be done different ways with different results. Even
an uncertified crazy EE could seem to figure that out.
Ok, my meter spins for 10 more seconds. What does your gas or electric
water heater do when it comes on? Have you ever seen it run for only
10 seconds then shut off?
Really,.......do you even have a clue how your furnace or water heater
Just remember trader........
Click your ruby red slippers together and repeat
"There's no place like home". With any luck, you just might get there.
Gee, can't you make up your mind? First YOU're the one who first
brought this up. Then a couple posts later, you say it's not worth
mentioning. Now, you're back to saying it does matter.
You picked the arbitrary time of 10 extra seconds of furnace burner
run time if you use cold water in the humidifier and then said it will
not effect your gas bill. It does. Even an extra 10 seconds of
furnace run time each cycle adds up and will show up in your bill. If
the furnace comes on only once an hour, that equates to 2 hours of
extra burner time a month. So, once again, you live in a very
strange universe where that usage would not show up in your gas bill
or else and more likely, you can't do basic math before making silly
And then you try to cloud the whole thing by pointing to the fact that
when a water heater comes on, it will stay on for long enough to bring
the tank back up to temperature. So what? That's how they operate.
It says zippo about the efficiency of the water heater compared to the
Finally, a gas water heater and a gas furnace are fairly close in
efficiency. That is not the case with your conjurred up example of
heating a cup of water with either a mini-torch or a jet engine. In
that case, of course there would be a huge difference, which I would
expect to be at least a couple orders of magnitude. That is not the
case in comparing a gas water heater and a gas furnace in a home,
which are going to be in the same ballpark.
So, whether using cold water in a humidifier results in the furnace
burner staying on 10 secs longer compared to using hot water is about
right or not, I don't know and neither do you. But the heat put
into the water by the water heater does not disappear. That heat
goes into the humidiifer, into the furnace, into the air, and into the
house. So, at the end of the day, whether you use hot water or cold
in the humidifier is going to have a negligible effect on your energy
usage. I'd say the effect is so small that it's not worth
mentioning. Hmm, that is what YOU said a few posts back too.
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:52:21 -0800 (PST), firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
and during that 2hrs each month how much more do you thing that water
heater is going to crank on?
A lot more that that furnace does for just the sole purpose of adding
moisture to a home.
Its amazing how you cant seem to get a grip on the simplest of things.
Always trying to analyze something down to a knat ass for some unknown
Wrong. In case you havent noticed, if a water heater is satisfied, it
will usually stay off all day when homeowners are at work. Thats how
well they hold their heat.
Now go and draw some water from it, even a small amount and it comes
back on until the temp is satisfied again.
When a furnace is maintaining the temp in the home its already
running. Why waste the energy of the water heater when the furnace
will do it. Even with the few extra seconds it will run to give the
house some moisture?
Ahh, at least you finally caught on to an example, HOWEVER, you are
incorrect in the case of the furnace/water heater efficiencys being
close. Most furnaces now are 95% efficient and condense flue gasses
into water vapor. Most water heaters (gas) still use a metal vent
chimney that stays open 24/7 thus is quite different in efficiency.
(although that clown ransley will spew all kind of silly shit like if
he has a clue about it)
Im suprised a pencil pusher like yourself doesnt know these things.
I see them everyday. Thats what I do.
Well, you're getting close now. I agree, the heat from the hot water
into the humidifier and into the home benefits you but it is so little
yet it requires quite a bit of energy compared to the furnace as you
are cycling a water heater that doesnt need to be cycled.
Some things are much more efficient to use and in this case the
furnace is and the water heater isnt.
Look at flashlights. It used to be that 2 Duracell alkaline batteries
in a krypton gave off much light but the battery life sucked. Use
those same batteries now with the LED flashlights. Very impressive
battery life and light that is as good and better. A much more
efficient way to put batteries to use.
Any chance in hell this is even remotely sinking in now trader?
Nah, I didnt think so.
It's going to use about the same amount of energy to heat the water
whether it's done in the water heater or the gas furnace. They are
in the same ball park regarding energy efficiency. At least you
finally seem to agree that a furnace running an extra 10 secs each
cycle does show up in your gas bill.
So, says you, in your world of strange physics. Perhaps you can
explain why putting energy into water in a water heater is drastically
different than the energy going in via the gas furnace.
It's amazing how so much of what you know to be true is just plain
Sure, which is further testimonial to the fact that they are in fact
efficient at heating water. I know that. You're the one claiming
that there is a huge energy inefficiency in heating water via a water
Depends on what you call a small amount. It comes on when the temp
has dropped enough to make it go on. That could be many gallons of
water, depending on when the water heater last shut off and the
incoming water temp. But again, so what? First you say that water
heaters are so well insulated, they can go all day without coming
on. Then, you claim if a few gallons of water causes the water
heater to cycle on, that somehow it's hugely inefficient. Once the
tank is brought up to temp, what do you think happens? The heat is
just instantly lost? More strange physics?
One more time. With cold water, the furnace is providing all the
heat to evaporate the water. So, the furnace will burn more gas
before it raises the house temp and turns off. The amount of extra
gas it will burn is roughly the amount of gas the water heater would
burn if you used hot water going into the humidifier instead of
cold. In other words, there is no free lunch, energy doesn't
magically appear or disappear. The energy absorbed heating the water
in the water heater is transferred into the air in the furnace.
Once again, mixing apples and oranges. First, most furnaces
currently installed in the US today are not 95% efficient. Here in
new construction in NJ you typically don't see above 93%. So, how
could the installed base of furnaces be 95%? More importantly, if
you want to compare a high efficiency gas furnace, then compare it to
a high efficiency gas water heater. You must not get out much,
because they don't have a flue that stays open 24/7. Likewise, if you
want to compare an old 80% efficient gas furnace, then compare it to a
typical old gas waer heater. Compared correctly, they are in the
same ballpark in efficiency. Not like your silly example of heating
a cup of water with either a torch or a jet engine.
Thank God you aren't doing what you do anywhere near me.
On Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:02:41 -0800 (PST), email@example.com wrote:
Thank God there arent too many idiots like you.
You are dumb beyond belief. Have fun in your world of make-believe.
Im done explaining. Nothing could get through that cement head of
yours. Burn all the energy you want. Your hopeless. Too bad.
Has somewhat better heat capacity curve for water than when I last
chimed in but it tells the point that using hot water is nothing
compared to energy to evaporate water:
That curve is showing the energy it takes to change water into
steam. For water to evaporate, it does not have to boil, or even
come close to boiling. Evaporation occurs as SOME of the water
molecules near the surface of a liquid that have slightly more energy
manage to break away from the surface tension of the water and escape
into the air. Hence, it is directly driven by the temperature of the
liquid. Take a cup of room temp water outside on a cold day and you
see nothing. Even though some of it is evaporating, it's not enough
to see. Take a cup of 130 deg water outside and you see vapor
escaping, even though the water is nowhere near 212. Surely that
simple experiment is enough to show that the difference between hot
and cold water does make a substantial difference in the rate of
Depends on what kind of liner it is. There is the ceramic liner that is
cemented to the inside of the chimney. The new ones are just an
insulated pipe they stick down the chimney and connect directly to the
appliance. They usually have a metal cap vent sticking out of the top of
the chimney. That may be the price difference.
*Those pesky contractors. We all know that it only takes ten minutes on TV
to install that stuff yet they still try and nail us with wages someone
could live on and their stupid overhead and cost of doing business. They
should take into consideration that there will be no warranty since you will
be furnishing the material.
There was another thread here about a kid who worked for $5.00 per hour.
See if you can get a hold of him. Another thought is to go to the street
corner in your town where the "Day laborers" hang out and pick up a few to
do the job.
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