what is the differences between whole house surge protectors?

Again, he posts without first learning facts. One author who writes papers about surviving lightning is Dr Mary Ann Cooper from U of IL. But again, one posts myths and mockery while another cites professionals and generations of experience. Ignore an electrician who replies while forgetting to first learn. Professionals recommend keeping feet together as useful protection from lightning. Same principles also demonstrates why single point earthing must be implemented.

Some will only post to attack the messenger rather than contribute knowledge. An informed poster would have known why feet together means increased safety during lightning storms.

Reply to
westom
Loading thread data ...

Damn, I don't need lightning rods? I can just put up 2 or 3 dishes?

Um, do I need the satelite receivers or can I just connect the dish to a VCR?? (I know the VCR doesn't receive satelite, but would it provide lightning protection??)

Or what happens if I don't connect any wires inside the house??

Geez w, I think I'll go into the lightning protection business.

trader and w and I agree that the dish has to be grounded to the power earthing system, just like cable and phone. (Hmm, or I musta misunderstood w.)

Reply to
bud--

That is interesting to know. I haven't lurked here for years and am now back. My Satellite dishes will be 35 feet up on the side of my house and the service panel is on the other side of the house and in the basement. So my ground has to go directly back to the panel? I can use a #14 ground to an electrical box in the attic. (on the other side of the wall I am mounting the satellite dishes to.

I was looking at both of my neighbors dishes mounted on their chimney chases and neither of them has a ground on them. Will this cause there houses to burn down?

Reply to
Gary

That should read can I use a #14 ground from cable ground block to electrical outlet box.

Reply to
Gary

Possibly, if lightning strikes the dish. Or more likely, it could blow up your satelite receiver, TV, etc. And it doesn't meet code. How lucky do you feel?

Reply to
trader4

You asked that 5 posts back. There was agreement from Bud, Tom and me, that the answer is no. But why do you prefer to ask strangers here rather than follow the directions for the dish you have? Go to the manufacturer's website or any other dish supplier and I'm sure you'll find instructions, diagrams, etc as to how to achieve an acceptable ground that meets code.

Reply to
trader4

w forgot to answer the question - how do you protect an airplane if "no earth ground means no effective protection".

w refuses to understand his own hanford link. It is about "some older model" power strips and says overheating was fixed with a revision to UL1449 that required thermal disconnects. That was 1998. There is no reason to believe, from any of these links, that there is a problem with suppressors produced under the UL standard that has been in effect since

1998. None of these links even say a damaged suppressor had a UL label.

But with no valid technical arguments all w has is pathetic scare tactics.

w is so pathetic. If he had valid arguments he wouldn't lie about others.

Where is the source??? Suppressors are actually tested by UL.

The village idiot repeats the lie because he can't understand what the IEEE guide clearly explains. Plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping.

w's religious mantra protects him from conflicting thoughts (aka reality).

Still missing - another lunatic that agrees with w that plug-in suppressors do NOT work.

Still missing - answers simple questions:

- What "industry standards" require "all appliances" to "contain surge protection"?

- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in suppressors?

- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"?

- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?

- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the IEEE example, pdf page 42?

- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector"?

- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge suppressor]"?

- Why does the IEEE Emerald book include plug-in suppressors as an effective surge protection device?

- Why does "responsible" manufacturer SquareD says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use"?

- Why aren?t airplanes crashing regularly - "no earth ground means no effective protection".

For real science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Reply to
bud--

I read back through the NEC. If the US-NEC is enforced requirements are

- ground block where coax enters the house

- #10 (if copper) minimum size ground wire from ground block, run in as straight a line as practicable. Length is not limited (it is for phone and cable).

- ground wire attaches anywhere on the power grounding electrode system including the heavy wires to the grounding electrode(s)

- "metal structures supporting the antenna" have to be similarly grounded. A dish is not specifically mentioned. You could argue the dish and structure are grounded by the coax to the ground block and that would probably provide protection.

You are not protecting from a direct lightning strike to the dish (contrary to one opinion). Protection from a direct strike would require a heavier dish ground wire with short connection to earth (which would have to be bonded to the power earthing system). And the connection from the dish entry ground block to the power earthing system would have to be short with consideration for the effects of high currents. I believe the earthing is primarily protection from the dish and lead-in getting direct pickup from a near lightning strike.

If the dish was connected only to its own ground rod, there could be thousands of volts between that ground rod (the dish coax) and the power ground if there was a large surge current to earth through the power earthing system or if there was a very near lightning strike.

As trader suggests RTFM?

Reply to
bud--

On Mar 9, 3:30=A0am, westom wrote:

Tom W.

What is it that actually does the damage when a consumer electronic device is damaged during a voltage spike? Is it voltage? No it is current that flows in a large enough amperage to be destructive. How much that is varies with the nature of the device. What controls how much current will flow through the device in question? Answer: The total impedance of the pathway and the voltage imposed across the pathway. How much current will flow if the voltage on one side of the device to be protected is zero relative to ground and the voltage on the other side is 1000 relative to ground at an impedance of say 1 k ohm. Will the current be different if the voltage on the first point were 10,000 volts and the voltage at the second point were 11,000 volts across the same device? Please answer that question. If your answer is anything other then the current flow would be exactly the same you have discredited yourself. What happens to the current flow if the voltage at the first point is 500,000 volts and the voltage at the second point is 501,000? Now lets install a surge protective device that will limit the difference across those same two points to

440 volts and at any point above 440 volts makes the effective difference much lower then 440 by bypassing the current around the device. How much current will flow now? The answer is the total current flow through the device will be less then a destructive current flow. Fully effective protection does not have to limit the voltage to ground. It only has to limit the current through the device to be protected. As long as the surge protective device provides a low enough impedance pathway around the device to be protected that the voltage across the protected device is held to a low enough value not enough current will be forced through the protected device to damage it. Success! And to achieve that success all we have to do is limit the voltage across the thing we are trying to protect to a voltage that will not force enough coulombs of electrons through the protected circuit fast enough to cause damage. Aircraft are struck by lightning quite frequently. Their on board electronics usually survive those events. The last time I flew I didn't see some endless super conductor trailing behind the aircraft until it eventually touched the ground. How then is it possible to provide protection to the extremely delicate and sophisticated electronics on the aircraft. Hint: It does not have a thing to do with grounding. It has everything to do with bonding and installing effective bypass circuits to shunt any unwanted current flow around the electronics that require protection.

-- Tom Horne

Reply to
Tom Horne

Bud

It might be helpful to those trying to sort the good advice from the bad advice if you refrained from calling Tom W. an idiot. Name calling causes people to get turned off and skip over otherwise good advice. I'd suggest we leave the libel to the person who has made the provably false statements about you in these forums. I base this suggestion on the old country style advise that it is unwise to wrestle with a pig because you will get filthy rotten dirty and the pig will enjoy it. Additionally even though Tom W may be terribly misinformed on this issue as well as being the stubbornest person who's opinions I've been subjected to he is not an idiot per se. Lets leave the mud slinging to those that have no such weapons as reasonable argument and honest debate to bring to bear and therefore have to resort to name calling.

For what it is worth.

-- Tom Horne

Reply to
Tom Horne

Gary

You really have chosen an installation location that is very difficult to protect. If you bond the dish to the Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) of your attic lighting circuit then the voltage on that circuit would rise to a very high value during a lightning strike to the dish itself or anything near by. That will jeopardize anything on that circuit that also has a connection to a wire carried utility other than the power lines. It will also jeopardize the circuit itself as a lightning strike will destroy the insulation on the two insulated conductors when the voltage on the circuits EGC rises to a point well above the effective insulation puncture withstand of the cable.

You need to run a conductor of at least the gauge specified in the installation instructions all the way down to the ground. You then install a ground rod and connect the dishes grounding conductor to that rod. Here is the part that you will just hate. You then run a bonding conductor from that ground rod to the electrical Grounding Electrode System located at or near the the electrical panel. The minimum size for that bonding conductor is number six American Wire Gauge under the US NEC but larger would be better.

If you want to improve your homes lightning and surge / spike protection you will run the required bonding conductor around the house buried in the earth. Then as long as you use a bare conductor you will be increasing the earth contact surface area of the Grounding Electrode System.

-- Tom Horne

Reply to
Tom Horne

I take it your not one of the installers that the sat companies give $100 or so to install these things :)

I never really thought about it before, but you have to wonder how many of the dishes out there are installed even close to the right way and conform to code, etc. Given the restrictions on locating the dish with a clean shot to the sat vs where the house grounding system is located, one would think that doing the ground correctly must be a real bitch in a good percentage of the installs. Yet you see adds all the time for free installation.

Reply to
trader4

Tom Horne accurately described how that dish is grounded to meet code. If your dish cannot be grounded to the building ground, better is to earth it as short as practical to a good earthing electrode. As Tom notes, to meet code, bury a conductor from that dish ground rod to the building earth ground. This also enhances the building earthing - makes better equipotential and conductivity. But as you have seen, most installers don't even spend money for a ground wire and ground rod.

Connecting to a ground wire inside the building is not earth ground. Not sufficient and dangerous including reasons that Tom Horne has provided.

How much danger is that dish at? How often does lightning strike in your neighborhood? In some locations, lower land is more often struck (that lightning strikes higher locations is often a myth). Frequency of lightning is related more to geology and other factors. But since earthing a dish is so simple, then a direct and short connection from dish to earth is preferred.

Also recommended is to keep the dish antenna lead outside until it is earthed at the service entrance.

Reply to
westom

Your question is confusing because effective protection is about current. For example, the minimally acceptable =91whole house=92 protector is rated 50,000 amps. Voltage is a function of protector ratings, quality of connections (ie impedance), etc. Voltage is a dependent variable. Current is the independent variable.

Surges are current sources. That means voltage will rise as high as necessary to maintain current flow. Even wood is a conductor. To maintain lightning current, then a church steeple voltage is higher - destruction. So that the same current flows without damage, Franklin earthed lightning rods. Now that current makes near zero volts; energy is dissipated harmlessly elsewhere. Protection is about current. Flowing current so that voltage is not created. What is your question? Why do you confuse the issue with voltages when constant current (a surge) will flow no matter what those voltages are.

How much current flows if one voltage is 1000 and the other side is

1100? Not relevant because the same current flows whether the voltage is 100 volts or 1000 volts different.

Are you trying to discuss equipotential? If voltage on the black wire is 8100 volts and the voltage on the white wire is only 8000 volts, then the power line only sees a 100 volt surge. Meanwhile,

8000 volts pushes current across the TV to the coax wire or through the furniture to the floor, or through the kid who was touching it then. No equipotential existed because current from the room to earth was still 8000 volts. That reality is demonstrated in an IEEE guide page 42 Figure 8. To have equipotential in a room not carefully engineered, then surge currents must be diverted BEFORE entering the room.

Why make the topic even more difficult? We are discussing cloud to ground lightning. Why waste everyone=92s time with cloud to cloud lightning and a ground issue that makes this discussion equivalent to a Dr Souse tale?

Airplanes are designed to make cloud to cloud surges irrelevant and also install protection connecting lightning to earth:

formatting link
So what is your point? Once hundreds or thousands of amps are permitting inside a building, then that current will raise voltages as necessary to flow to earth. All high reliability facilities eliminate the problem where current enters the building. Those thousands of amps earthed at the entrance creates near zero volts inside. Those same thousand of amps inside a building - see page 42 Figure 8 - a TV

8000 volts damaged because current through a power strip protector still had to f> It has everything to do with bonding and installing effective bypass

What do you think I have been posting all this time? Don=92t you get it? Bonding, clamping, conducting, shunting, diverting, connecting =96 its all the same thing. And it does something only when bonded ./ diverted to what? Earthing a =91whole house=92 protector is so that current flows around the electronics =96 not through it. So that energy is dissipated in earth =96 not inside the house. Why did Franklin earth a lightning rod? Exact same thing is performed by earthing a =91whole house=92 protector. . So that current flows around the wood / electronics =96 not through it. Something that a plug-in protector cannot do. High current without high voltage inside means no massive and destructive energy. Exactly why a protector is only as effective as its earth ground =96 so that current has that low impedance path around electronics.

Ok. Your quoted sentence is exactly what I have been discussing all along. Why are you confused? Was it the usual insults from Bud, saltydoy, etc that masked the underlying science? That is Bud's objective. To keep things nasty so that the science is not apparent.

Reply to
westom

Holy Crap!

Reply to
salty

If poor w was not hampered by religious blinders he could discover what the IEEE guide says in this example:

- A plug-in suppressor protects the TV connected to it.

- "To protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required."

- In the example a surge comes in on a cable service with the ground wire from cable entry ground block to the ground at the power service that is far too long (a problem in many houses). In that case the IEEE guide says "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector." (A suppressor like the OP finally bought can also be used.)

- w's favored power service suppressor would provide absolutely *NO* protection.

There you have it. Airplanes do actually "install protection connecting lightning to earth." An invisible earthing chain???

Poor sensitive w. No one *ever* agrees with him. Current list: bud, trader, salty, TomH, Mark.

If you want science read the IEEE and NIST guides. Both say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Still missing - another lunatic that agrees with w that plug-in suppressors do NOT work.

Still missing - answers simple questions:

- What "industry standards" require "all appliances" to "contain surge protection"?

- Why do the only 2 examples of protection in the IEEE guide use plug-in suppressors?

- Why does the NIST guide says plug-in suppressors are "the easiest solution"?

- Why does the NIST guide say "One effective solution is to have the consumer install" a multiport plug-in suppressor?

- How would a service panel suppressor provide any protection in the IEEE example, pdf page 42?

- Why does the IEEE guide say for distant service points "the only effective way of protecting the equipment is to use a multiport [plug-in] protector"?

- Why did Martzloff say in his paper "One solution. illustrated in this paper, is the insertion of a properly designed [multiport plug-in surge suppressor]"?

- Why does the IEEE Emerald book include plug-in suppressors as an effective surge protection device?

- Why does "responsible" manufacturer SquareD says "electronic equipment may need additional protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use"?

- Why aren?t airplanes crashing regularly - "no earth ground means no effective protection".

Why can't you answer simple questions w????

Reply to
bud--

TomH missed a coax ground block, required where the dish coax enters the building. If the dish coax goes down to the basement, in Tom?s scheme the ground block is connected to the ground rod - could be via the #6 wire as it goes past.

---------------------------- Do you think the NEC minimum #10 wire from the dish to the rod would survive a direct lightning strike?

Phone and cable entry wires can carry a fraction of a lightning strike to the outside wires (there are multiple paths to earth). The NEC, in general, requires the phone and cable entry protectors to connect with a max 20 foot long wire to the power earthing system.( That may not be short enough to protect equipment from high voltage between power and signal wires.) The NEC has *no* maximum length for the connection from a dish coax entry ground block to the power earthing system. I don't see how the NEC intended for it's requirements to protect from a direct lightning strike. Unless there is a dish coax ground block with a short connection to the power earthing system, equipment damage is very likely. If I was a ham radio operator and expected an antenna to be hit by lightning I would have much more elaborate protection. For a rather low 10,000A lightning strike and a very good 10 ohm rod resistance to earth, the rod connection is 100,000V above "absolute" earth potential. Fortunately, for most of us a direct strike is extremely unlikely. And the OP is putting the dish on the side of the house, which should make it a less likely target.

I have concerns that a remote rod (and the dish coax connected to it) could wind up at a very different potential than the power earthing system if there is a strong surge that is earthed (power, phone, cable), or there is a very close lightning strike (ground potential rise). The bond wire certainly helps, but has significant impedance for surges. Increasing the size does not help as much as is expected.

Bottom line - if I was installing a dish on my house I would try to install it low where a direct lightning strike would be not worth worrying about. I would try to bring the coax in near the power service. In any case I would be unlikely to add a ground rod.

Reply to
bud--

To the above critique of w's post, I can't resist adding:

"Why make the topic even more difficult? We are discussing cloud to ground lightning. Why waste everyone=92s time with cloud to cloud lightning and a ground issue that makes this discussion equivalent to a Dr Souse tale? "

I thought all along we were discussing surge protection.

"What do you think I have been posting all this time? Don=92t you get it? Bonding, clamping, conducting, shunting, diverting, connecting =96 its all the same thing. And it does something only when bonded ./ diverted to what? "

I think it's news to the rest of us that all those are the same thing.

Seems that airplane example has w's head about to explode. Because for the guy that's been saying there can be no surge protection without a direct 10ft connection to earth ground, it's an insurmountable paradox. For the rest of us, we know that the way they achieve aircraft surge protection is through a combination of those different techniques. And the clamping they would do on the inputs to say electronic sensors or communications gear is similar in principle to that done by a plug-in surge protector.

Reply to
trader4

You asked that 5 posts back. There was agreement from Bud, Tom and me, that the answer is no. But why do you prefer to ask strangers here rather than follow the directions for the dish you have? Go to the manufacturer's website or any other dish supplier and I'm sure you'll find instructions, diagrams, etc as to how to achieve an acceptable ground that meets code.

I was asking now about the grounding block to a junction box. Why do you want to respond to a strangers post if you have no helpful information?

Reply to
Gary

Thanks for the info Bud. From my reading on the net the grounding of the dish is for static buildup only.

Reply to
Gary

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.