"All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present ... shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system. .. 250.52(A)(1) Metal underground water pipe."
If it's there, Code requires it to be used "to form the grounding electrode system" i.e. as an earth ground.
Wrong -- it MUST be a grounding electrode if it's present.
True -- but not relevant to the question of whether using it is optional or required. If it's present at all, its use as part of the grounding electrode system is MANDATORY.
I spoke with the electrician today and he said he would use #8 wire (he said that was for 100 amp panel). Not sure what you meant by "very restrictive" in using that, I doubt he would do anything different.
Also, I am not so sure anymore that my city does allow the water pipe connection for add on grounds. In any event, did I understand you correctly that since the original "bonding" to the pipe was not required to be 5 foot from entrance, and since it is still all metal, it doesn't make sense to redo it to within 5 feet (if not required) i.e. just leave that alone until plastic pipe enters the picture?
I hope this doesn't open up a new can of worms, but I remembered that the way they did these houses, they didn't have a ground bar in the panel--the grounds are connected to the neutral bar. I asked him about that and he said he would just connect the new ground connections to the neutral bar also and "that was legal." Do you see a problem with that?
Doug, as it is now the only ground is to the water pipe, but back then they just connected it any convenient place near panel--not within 5 foot of pipe entrance. So if I have the ground rod installed AND leave the current situation, am I right in that it will still serve as a earth ground AND a bonding to the pipes. BTW, it is still all metal, so if not required, I would assume it is ok just to leave that as is. Does that satisfy what you said above?
Thanks for the chart, but I have to admit I have no idea what those abbreviations mean. :)
I asked the electrician today what size wire would go from ground rod to panel and he said #8 since it was a 100 amp. It sounds like you are saying it should be #6?
You never need to be bigger than 250.66 so if you have a typical 100a service #8 copper is OK. If you upgraded the service you would have to upgrade the GEC SE = Service Entrance Cable GEC = Ground Electrode Conductor (wire to the rod or water pipe) Cu = copper Al = Aluminum
John I'll get grief for this but I suggest you call the nearest office of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW). Numerous people will now tell you that they will cost too much but that just isn't so. On average a unionized shop employs twelve electricians. The pricing of Electrical work is very competitive. The difference between a unionized shop and a non union shop is not what the customer pays but that more of what you pay goes to wages and benefits. Better pay attracts better electricians. A union inside wireman has four years of formal training. A union residential wireman has at least two years of formal training and four years of supervised field experience before they can work unsupervised. I am self employed but I was trained by the Joint Apprenticeship and Training Program of the National Electrical Contractors Association (NECA) and the IBEW. The Union local office will be happy to give you the names of three NECA member contractors that do residential work. You will then have a better chance of getting a quality job. No group of electricians is completely free of dunderheads but using a union shop will at least improve your odds.
2005 NEC 250.64-B "Securing and protection against physical damage" "Grounding electrode conductors smaller than 6AWG [#8} shall be in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, rigid nonmetallic conduit, electrical metalic tubing, or cable armor." All of them are a form of pipe (some are light weight pipe) except cable armor which is a spiral metal protection like BX. If the conductor is run through ferrous tubing/pipe there are additional requirements that directly or indirectly bond both ends of the pipe to the grounding conductor. If you use one of the required protection methods #6 should be cheaper.
"A 6AWG grounding electrode conductor that is free from exposure to physical damage shall be permitted to be run along the surface of the building construction without metal covering or protection where it is securely fastened to the construction; other wise it shall" use one of the protective methods above.
"A 4AWG or larger copper or aluminum grounding electrode conductor shall be protected where exposed to physical damage."
My intent was if the electrode connection to the water pipe is not within 5 ft of the building entrance, the restriction of connecting your added receptacle ground wires within 5 ft of the entrance does not make sense. I would usually split bolt the receptacle ground wires to one of the heavy grounding electrode wires anyway.
If the electrode connection to the water pipe is not withing 5 ft of the entrance it is safe as a grounding electrode as long as the metal water pipe is intact. Your call whether you move the connection.
[Note that when w_ talks about "bonding" the water pipe, it is not for using it as a grounding electrode, but is the connection required if the water service is plastic.]
At the service panel only (not downstream subpanels) the neutral and ground are connected. The neutral bar is usually insulated from the enclosure, but they should [almost] always be connected together at the service panel. The connection is often by a screw that goes through the neutral bar and screws into the enclosure behind - not at all obvious.
The neutral-ground connection at the service is part of providing a low resistance metal path for short circuit currents to trip breakers. The path is ground wire to neutral-ground bond to service neutral to transformer.
As I'm sure you are aware, this has been pointed out by numerous people in numerous threads. It is incredible how someone could be so stupid to say water pipe is not required to be an electrode. The code, as you quote it, is absolutely clear.
Code demands that the AC electric have a proper connection to earth ground. Any one of the electrodes in paragraphs two through seven are sufficient. The electrode defined in paragraph one (water pipe) is not sufficient.
Assume that John Ross was correct - that ALL earthing electrodes must be connected. Then every steel I-beam concreted in earth must be bonded to the breaker box. Water well casing must be bonded to AC breaker box. All rebar inside concrete footing must be bonded. Rebar inside any concrete basement floor must be bonded. Any steel plate buried in earth must be bonded. Any "other local metal underground system or structure such as piping systems and underground tanks" (quoted from paragraph seven) must also be connected to breaker box. According to John, if any of those six items exist, then they also must be bonded to the breaker box.
Why are bonding wires not attached to every of six items? Because Doug Miller is wrong. The breaker box only needs one earthing electrode that conforms to paragraphs two through seven. Code says that any electrode used for earthing must be bonded together to form a single earth grounding system. Any of those other six electrodes not being used for earthing need not be connected to the breaker box - in direct contradiction to Doug Miller and the naive salesman Bud.
Code says that any electrode connected for earth must also be bonded to the breaker box. If used to earth the telephone line protector, then that electrode must also be bonded to AC electric box. If cable TV is earthed to any of those electrodes, then that electrode also must bond to breaker box. Any electrode used as earth ground must be bonded together. Listed are six earthing electrodes that would not be connected to breaker box because nothing was using them for earth ground. According to Doug Miller, all six of those electrodes also must be connected by 6 AWG wire.
If you want to bond the 'first five feet of water pipe' to breaker box, then by all means do so. But that is beyond what code would require of John Ross. What is most clearly required: a connection from breaker box to any other earthing electrode used to ground telephone, cable TV, satellite dish, TV antenna, etc. Those connection are required by code so that all 'being used electrodes' are bonded into one earthing system. Yes, the phone line and cable TV earthing electrodes also must earth the AC breaker box because those electrodes are being used to earth telephone and cable - as also required by code.
A metal underground tank is an earthing electrode according to paragraph seven. But if not being used by anything as an earth ground, then AC breaker box also need not be bonded to that underground tank ... in direct contradiction to what Doug Miller and naive salesman Bud have posted.
Correction: according to the National Electrical Code.
I even quoted the relevant portions of it.
Here, I'll do it again. Pay attention this time.
"All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present at each building or structure served SHALL BE bonded together to form the grounding electrode system." [2005 NEC, Article 250.50]
Actually, it's one through six: 250.52(A)(1) through 250.52(A)(6).
Code *also* demands that all of those electrodes be bonded together.
They must be, per Article 250.50 -- you really ought to read it some time.
False. Code requires the "metal frame of the building or structure" to be bonded to the grounding electrode system. It does not require every individual component of the frame to be so bonded.
False. There is no requirement that it be bonded separately from the pipe(s) it is connected to.
False. Rebar less than 1/2" in diameter, or less than 20' in length, is not required to be bonded. There also is no requirement that individual pieces of rebar be separately bonded to the grounding electrode system; Code specifically permits them to be bonded to _each_other_ "by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means."
False. Again, as with rebar, there are size requirements of which you appear completely ignorant.
Ahh, finally you got one correct.
According to the NEC.
Probably because you, or someone who listened to your ignorant ravings, installed the grounding electrode system.
Doug Miller is wrong. The breaker box only needs one earthing
Try again, bozo. Yes, one such electrode is sufficient. But if there are *two* such electrodes present, they must *both* be used as grounding electrodes.
Absolutely false. You simply do not have the first clue what you are talking about. Code specifically and clearly says that ALL such electrodes that are present SHALL BE bonded together. If one of those electrodes is present and
*not* being used for grounding, that's a clear Code violation.
Now go get yourself a copy of the 2005 Code, read Article 250.50, and STFU.
No, not according to me. According to the National Electrical Code.
Try reading it some time.
False again. Metal water pipe is required to be bonded as part of the grounding electrode system. Water pipe more than 5' from the point at which it enters the building is not permitted to be used as part of the grounding electrode system -- therefore, the bonding must be within the first five feet.
What is most clearly required is for you to read the Code, before you try to talk about what it means.
.. then it's a Code violation: it's present, but it's not bonded.
What part of "ALL ... that are present ... SHALL BE BONDED TOGETHER" are you having such a hard time understanding??
It will need protection where it is located. The cable armor sounds the easiest (to bend), does that contain ferrous?
If it HAS to be moved, did you or someone say it has to be one contiuous wire all the way back to panel? I'm not sure how he could do that without wall damage. Can it be clamped to the point where it currently is at pipe and then jumpered to within 5 feet of entrance?
This panel (there is only one at house) has NO ground bar--grounds and neutrals are on the "neutral" bar. So he is proposing just adding these new ground connections there as well. Is that OK? If they are bonded together anyway, I can't see how it could hurt, but as you know this is all new to me.
Doug, I understand what you are saying about current code. My point was that in 1960 they didn't care where on the pipe it was located. As it is now, it IS the ground for the house, but probably nowhere near 5 feet from entrance.
My understanding is that rule was simply because of worry of plastic pipes being used in repairs etc. So what I was saying was that IF they don't require the current code for that if installing a ground rod, I still will have a ground to earth through the pipes since it is still all metal. Someone said there were "other" reasons to do with stray currents in the first 5 feet etc. and you ridiculed him. So I assume that code or no code, just adding a ground rod won't magically make my present pipe earth ground disappear. Agree?
Yes, but new work needs to be done to current code. Check with your local electrical inspection authority to be sure -- but I imagine they'll construe that to require you to bond the water pipe within 5' of the entrance.
Nope, not me. That was someone else. Better go back and check that again.
Quite true. Just make sure that they *are* bonded together -- preferably within 5' of where the pipe enters the building -- to make sure that they are at the same potential.
Doug - why is that underground tank not connected to breaker box? It completely meets paragraph seven as an' earthing electrode. Using your reasoning, then that underground tank must be connected to breaker box. But nothing is using the tank as an electrode. Therefore it does not exist - is not 'present' - as an earthing electrode. It exists only as a tank even though it 'could' become an earthing electrode according to code. Please learn what that paragraph really says.
If we drive a ground rod into earth and don't connect anything to it, then according to Doug Miller's interpretation, we must connect that rod to breaker box with a 6 AWG wire. Obviously not. It 'could' be an earthing electrode. But it is not because nothing else is using it for earthing. Therefore - and in direct contradiction to what Doug has posted - we need not connect it to the breaker box.
The phrase is "that is present". That underground tank and that isolated ground rod are not 'present' because nothing is using it as an earthing electrode.
If we earth an overhead TV antenna (as required by code), then that ground rod must also connects to the earthing system being used by AC breaker box. Why? That TV antenna ground rod is 'present'. It now exists as an earthing electrode and therefore must be interconnected to other earth grounds.
Code only requires John Ross to have one earthing electrode. Minimum to meet that requirement is one earth ground rod located and connected as short as practicable to breaker box. Being earthed by a wire as short as possible is also a code requirement. For other reasons, we want that wire to be 'less than 10 feet' and routed separated from other wires. That one earth ground then meets a minimum code requirement for earthing.
If John Ross is using some other earth ground for telephone or cable TV, then that earthing electrode is 'present' - must also connect to the breaker box. Code also says those other utilities must connect less than 20 feet to the earth ground. Just another reason why all incoming utilities should enter at a common service entrance - since all must use the same earthing 'system'.
Doug - please learn that what code paragraph says. You keep quot> >>> According to John, if any of those six items exist, then they
I disagree with Doug on this point. If the connection to the water pipe was code compliant when installed - connection used to be allowed other than within 5 ft - the installation is OK now unless modifications are made that trigger new construction requirements.
And on to the village idiot.
As Doug points out, the village idiot rewrites the code. The code says paragraph *1-6*. Paragraph *1* is water pipe - required by code to be used as a grounding electrode. When reality conflicts with the beliefs of the village idiot, he tries to change reality.
The steel frame of a commercial buildings is one of the lowest earth resistance electrodes. As Doug points out, the frame (generally) must be used as a grounding electrode. It does not apply to each member. Anyone who can read and think could figure that out from the NEC.
Completely idiotic statement. The NEC does not required rebar be used at all - a length of copper wire can be used. And only required for new construction. And does not apply to floor.
If the village idiot would read the NEC, this applies to a plate that is specifically buried to be used as an earthing electrode.
This is ?paragraph 7". The NEC does not require these items be used as grounding electrodes. Only w_?s renumbering includes ?7".
Not according to Doug, according to the NEC.
Because w_ is unable to read and understand what the NEC really requires. Truly incomprehensible misrepresentations.
The electrical system needs only one earthing electrode *system* than conforms to paragraphs *1-6*. The NEC says ?All grounding electrodes... that are present?, not just your favorite one.
They are used as earthing electrodes because they improve the connection of the electrical system to earth. It is totally irrelevant whether the
6 electrode types are used by phone or other utilities.
Where did Doug say that? ?Concrete encased electrode? is #4. Water pipe and structural steel the size of the conductor goes up with the service size reflecting their superior connection to the earth.
For those without a mental impairment, water pipe (10 ft ....) is
*required* to be used as an earthing electrode.
I never said underground tank must be used as a grounding electrode because the NEC does not say the tank must be used.
To quote w_ "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be challenged technically, then attack the messenger." Not able to compete on facts, w_ has to try to discredit those who challenge his bullcrap.
Poor w_ seems to have a significant mental impairment. Virtually everything he said was wrong. Perhaps the institution should limit his use of the internet.
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