Transfer switch or cutoff switch?

I recently bought a Coleman Powermate Genny. It's 7000 watts, 875 surge. While I'd love to backfeed my main panel for convience reasons I do realize it's illegal and unsafe. I'm considering a double pole 20 amp cutoff switch before the meter. (The main line is buried, comes u to the meter and exits behind the meter to the main panel inside th house). The main panel is a Cutler-Hammer 200 amp box. I don't se where an interlock switch(at the main breaker) is available for my box Would a double pole cutoff switch make it safe to backfeed? I have

-- rh45

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Just sounds like a small semi-auto transfer switch w/ a relay sensing the generator output to open the line-feed breaker. The site is almost useless for any content, but it does say it it is a disconnect when you close your internal breaker to supply the feed from the genset.

That's cool. I never knew anything like that existed. I'll call my powe co. to see if it's available here. I'll probably call Generlink to ge more info about the unit. Seems almost too simple. I'm wondering wha the inside of the unit looks like and how it assures not backfeedin the utility pole

-- rh45

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Your double pole switch will not be adequate, though it will work. The requirement is for a switch that will prevent both line and generator to be connected at the same time. The DPST switch will allow you to do that, but it will also allow you to forget to do it. Someone suggested a DPDT switch. That would work if there is an intermediate position in which neither is connected, or else you have the same problem. And, unless it is UL listed for that application it still will not meet code.

You might want to confirm this by emailing the manufacturer, but I don't see a problem with your generator on a 7500w transfer switch. They have circuit breakers in them, like what is in your breaker box. Your breakers don't trip everytime you turn a motor on, does it? So I don't see why the transfer switch should trip in a comparable situation. But it is easy enough to check with the manufacturer.

The generlink someone recommended looks like a pretty neat solution; except installation might be expensive. Just don't forget that you still have only

To comply with the US National Electric Code the connection arrangement for your generator must be immune from human error. That means it must be impossible to connect the generator to the public power lines even by accident. Since it is physically possible to connect the generator to the house with that double pole switch closed it is unlawful to connect it that way. Additionally double male plugs are known as suicide cords for a reason. One mistake means that you or a loved one could die. Do it right or don't do it. The least expensive way to connect a generator to the entire house would be to install a new SquareD feed through panel ahead of your existing panel and install the SquareD interlock kit in it. The cost of the equipment will be Two Hundred Fifty dollars ($250). You would have to rearrange your existing panel to separate the neutrals and Equipment Grounding Conductors (EGCs) onto separate buss bars and isolate the neutral buss from ground. That new panel can be tied in anywhere between the meter and the existing panel but if you use an exterior panel you gain a place to supply outdoor equipment, branch circuits, and feeders. The equipment could include well pumps, air conditioners, pool equipment, jacuzzis, or fish ponds. The branch circuits and feeders would be those serving separate buildings or the loads I just listed. A two hundred ampere transfer switch, on the other hand, would not give you any of those advantages and would cost $340 for the indoor version of just the switch itself.

You can hurt yourself on anything, and suicide cords are easier than many; but are they really that dangerous?

If you opened your main breaker first, wouldn't it be perfectly safe to plug into the backfeed outlet first and then into the generator? (yes, I know that if you forget to open the main breaker it is potentially live...)

And if you foolishly plugged into the generator first it still wouldn't be all that dangerous. Touching the hot alone would do nothing since the generator is not grounded (and hopefully the genny has a GFCI anyhow). To be hurt it would be necessary to touch both hot and neutral. While that would hurt, unless it was on the chest (a difficult thing to achieve) it wouldn't be particularly dangerous.

I know 10 people will jump on this and tell me that everyone know they are really dangerous and I am fool to be questioning it; but HOW are they really dangerous?

You are assuming that you are the only one that will try to use it and that you will never be drunk, over tired, stressed out, or otherwise impaired when you need it. Can you guarantee that it will never be hooked up by some helpful neighbor or no it all teenager while you are at work or out of town?

I have worked in fire and rescue since 1981. In those thirty years I have attended about five serious electrical injuries. Of the two electrocutions I can recall one was a cheater cord to bypass the safety on an appliance during trouble shooting and one was a suicide cord that was used to re energize wiring rendered dead by an open in the wiring. As you might have guessed the decedent was a child of five years of age.

The International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers is committed to seeking manslaughter charges against anyone who causes the death of an outside wireman by back feeding. Feeling Lucky?

-- Tom Horne, Inside Wireman, IBEW#D841733

Dumbass! Touching the hot alone would give you a shock, potentially a fatal one, because the generator *is* grounded -- what do you think it's sitting on, anyway?

Wrong AGAIN. Will you PLEASE stop giving electrical advice? You're DANGEROUS.

Because you can get a fatal shock if you touch either of the hot prongs.

Maybe I misunderstood the directions I was given. I was told to turn off ALL breakers, then the main. Connect the cable to the generator, then the wall socket. Crank the generator and let it warm up then turn on only the breakers needed but keeping in mind not to overload the capacity of the generator. I didn't see the risk of shock while the main is off and the generator is off. I don't profess to be an electrician by a long shot. I was thinking that a double or triple pole master cutoff switch before the meter would make it impossible to backfeed the utility pole. Is this wrong? I was told that the main breaker may not have sufficient gap to ensure the electricity won't "jump" the gap in the main breaker, but a safety cutoff switch has several inches of clearance between the two.

Tom, I like the idea you have about the Square D box, but it does seem like a lot of work. I see Square D sells a 200 amp breaker box with the interlock switch already in it. Would this replace the box I have now? I almost bought one recently, but didn't know enough about it. My neighbor has a big master cutoff switch box outside next to the meter. It's to cutoff power before it gets into the house to the main breaker. That's where I got the idea. I really don't want a transfer switch/box but I'm still weighing the pros/cons. I just think it's so much easier and so much more flexiblity.

Check out these interlock kits for Cutler-Hammer Panels:

Excellent info John. I looked high and low and couldn't find an interlock kit on CH's website. It looks like just a lockout plate and decals in the kit. Isn't there two breakers in an interlock kit? One for the utility power and one for the genny? If I do the interlock kit, will I need another 30amp 240 breaker and wire it to another plug box to connect the generator to?

I did it that way for 3 power outages, and it worked fine. I actually made up a checklist and really checked it as done. Assuming you follow the checklist, the main danger is that the main breaker could be defective and not really open. Sure, you would probably just stall the generator as it tries to power your neighborhood, but linemen have been electrocuted this way, so it is a serious possibility.

And, as Tom points out in his reply to a post just above, you could be doing it when you are tired or drunk and get it wrong, or somebody else could do it and screw up. Besides, it is illegal, and supposedly the utility will check houses with lights on; though I expect that is an urban legend.

I bit the bullet and installed a transfer switch a year ago. I haven't had an opportunity to really use it (knock on wood...), but I feel better about it as it is pretty foolproof.

If I install a manual transfer switch, should I get a 50 amp switch t be safe since most 50amp switches are rated to 12500 watts? Is i possible to connect a 30 amp plug (on generator) to a 50 amp switch Maybe if it's hardwired to the switch

-- rh45

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Knowing nothing I'll add my two pence from that standpoint. I consulted with a licensed and well experienced electrician. He installed a transfer switch wich was $500 and his labor, another $400 as I recall and it works on the alloted circuits as proven by a two day outage last year. It seems to me that when you choose to energize the entire house on a small generator you could overload it accidentally. And, as I said, since I don't know anything about electricity I assume that this could cause a catastrophic accident. No ones life is worth a savings of any amount of money.

-- rh45

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There are all kind of switches and difficulties of installation, so the prices you give might be right for some. But for normal installation of a 7500w switch, it should be about half of that. (having just done one...)

I can't take this anymore; gotta speak up.

A Transfer Switch, properly installed, automatically disconnects the wired ckts from the mains, meter, incoming power, whatever you want to call it, all in ONE motion, and gives thos ckts to the generator ONLY.

A cutoff switch, though functional enough, is ANOTHER added action in order to isolate the generator from the power coming in. First you have to throw the cutoff switch, then hook up your generator - at LEAST two steps, easily forgotten/mixed up in an emergency. With a transfer switch, you can monitor the power being used with the meter, how much is on which leg, and even control what can or can't run. With a cutoff switch, after you get the generator hooked up and running, then you have to be sure you turn off several breakers, or go around and make sure "extra" things aren't running. With a transfer switch, using it assures you disconnected from the incoming power by virtue of its design. A cutoff switch just disconnects the whole house and that's all. With a transfer switch, you can still know when power comes back. Not so with a cutoff switch.

Some codes still require a cutoff switch regardless of whether you use a transfer switch or not, because they predate transfer switches for residences. Yes, I have a transfer switch. Yes, I used it during the Ice Storm on '98, for 5 days, in fact. No, I'm not required to have a cutoff switch. My installation was inspected and passed with flying colors. Best to check on local codes.

Just my two cents

Pop

"rh455" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@no-mx.homeplot.com...

I think that these interlock kits utilize the existing main breaker and one new 2 pole circuit breaker for the generator input. The two pole generator circuit breaker will need to be located just below the main breaker in the existing electrical panel. This insures that when the panel main is closed the genny main is open. Shutting off the panel main will allow the genny main to be turned on which in turn blocks the panel main from being flipped back on.