finally they are going to tell us where the property line is. we bought this place with the understanding that there was an encroachment. a fence and chicken coup supposedly on our land. Now , when we get the correct boundary , how to delicately get the stuborn old guy to move it? he even tilted the roof of the coop to dump rain into our yard. Hasn't helped the septic drain field. HELP! I Remember Another Quagmire = IRAQ
If that guys stuff is on you property then you have every right to have it removed and promptly. Give that asshole 30 days to tear it down. If he doesn't do it the you have every right to remove it and dispose of it however you wish. Giving notice is as fair as you can be. I would send him a certified letter telling him what he will be required to do and when. You can't be more fair than that.
Depending on your state's laws, you may not be able to make him move it. Allowing an encroachment to exist for a certain amount of time can give people rights to what is ostensibly your land. You bought knowing there was an encroachment...
Time to talk to a lawyer.
R
sdc:
It's there, it's grandfathered. Cultivate good feelings and friendly neighbor relationships with the "stubborn old guy". Perhaps you could bring him some pies or casseroles, or maybe an invitation to coffee once in a while. Build up the good will-o-meter and your efforts will bear much fruit. If the coop & fence are no longer in use, perhaps you could (after some good will buildup) offer to demolish them for him, or help with the demolition, or the moving of them if they are in use. I suggest copius reference to Dale Carnegie's HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLE.
Remember: it is probably grandfathered, and the law is not likely on your side. Even if it is, a quick reliance on the law is sure to get you on the guy's bad side, which is a guaranteed ride into the very unpleasant "push the envelope of what the neighbors will stand" zone. See his point of view. He's probably been there much longer, and most likely remembers that the structures have been there a long time, and "weren't hurting no one". Be forceful, and you will be seen as the young whippersnappers who thought they could move in and run things their own way. Be friendly, and you will be seen as the nice folks who are trying to fit in with the current social order. There is an invisible point system in all places like this which you must always be aware of.
Regarding the roof drainage into the yard -- the roof is only draining such water as is intercepted by the roof, which isn't going to hurt your drain field that much. The yard already intercepts more rain. Let it go while the above process is in motion. Cordially yours: Gerard P.
Not true. Nor is the previous advice to tear it down sound.
If the survey shows the fence and chicken coup are actually on your property, you need to consult a real estate attorney. The biggest issue are possible adverse possession or the obtainment of an easement by the neighbor having had open access for a long enough time. In addition to openly occupying your property for a very long period, like
15 years, for adverse possession to apply, he usually would also have had to pay taxes on the property.Only a local lawyer can tell you how to best proceed and avoid making matters much worse. I'd consult with one BEFORE I talked to the neighbor or took any action.
Cultivate good feelings and friendly
Not sure where you are, but the tax thing rings odd. If I paid your property tax, it doesn't confer any of your land possession to me. The old timer thinks that the erections in question are on his property, he pays his property tax. All's well as far as he's concerned. Adverse possesion laws vary _tremendously_ from state to state. Sometimes the possession has to be open and hostile. Other times all it takes is someone taking care of the area in question (think mowing and pruning).
This is the only thing the OP can and should do. Unfortunately he should have consulted the lawyer prior to purchasing the property.
R
Why would you buy it without a survey? How did you know what you were buying? Prior to the purchase this would have been the seller's problem and he would be the one who pissed off the neighbor.
...
The time to have resolved where the property line(s) is(are) was _before_ you closed on the property. With whom did you have "an understanding" and what did that understanding entail? Whatever it was, undoubtedly it has absolutely no legal bearing.
Can only repeat advice of another--consult w/ an attorney on what your rights are (which you made a real mistake if you didn't before closing as appears would be the case) and then figure out how to go from there.
Depending on how large the property is, what the extent of the encroachment is, what the state/use of the coop is, etc., etc., etc., would all have pretty major input on what I would consider a problem and how to address it. If this has been there the proverbial long time and it's a long-time resident, undoubtedly there will be virtually no way you're going to effect a significant change without ruffling feathers (so to speak :) )...
Again, the lesson to anyone else is to find out the real deal _first_ ... while I doubt it will work out that way, you may find out you don't actually have clear title to the entire piece of property you thought you bought. Of course, you also may find out that the property lines aren't where you were lead to think they were, too, and in fact, the coop isn't even on what you thought your property was/is...
See below:
Also, even without adverse possession, paying someone elses taxes can result in property possession. The classic case being when a town sells tax liens on properties that have unpaid tax. At that point, the person buying the lien pays the taxes and if the property owner doesn't take action to pay the back taxes plus interest to the holder, after a certain period, the holder of the tax lien can foreclose.
The
Yes, why anyone would buy a property knowing that someone else has possibly built a structure on it, without getting this surveyed and resolved first, is beyond me.
That's an interesting twist on it. I wonder how that shakes out in the real world. Say that the adverse possessor doesn't pay the taxes on the disputed property, does that mean that the property owner automatically keeps the land? Does it mean the property owner doesn't have to pay taxes on it as it's someone else's responsibility? If the encroaching owner doesn't pay, does the municipality file a tax lien and sell the disputed property?
Paying unpaid taxes through a tax lien process is entirely different, and entirely more likely, than someone selectively paying a small portion of your taxes to cover the small amount of land occupied by the encroachment. How would the encroaching owner know how much to pay? How would the municipality know how to apportion the tax paid?
There aren't many questions that come up on this newsgroup that is so convoluted that the only advice applicable is consult a local lawyer knowledgeable in real estate law.
R
All good questions. I think the paying taxes aspect only likely comes into play when the property at issue is an entire parcel, not just a boundary issue. A scenario where this could happen would be where an elderly person died, with no close family. Say the person who was housekeeper then moved in and continued to maintain the property and pay the tax bills for 20+ years. The housekeeper would then have likely met the reqts for adversed possession.
In general, I agree. But in this case, I can think of an interesting angle, where taxes could be paid on part of the property. Consider this: Suppose the coop/structure is substantial enough that it's part of the tax valuation. With things all screwed up, it's conceivable that the coop might be included in the valuation of the encroachers property. In that case, the encroacher would have been paying the property tax on at least the value of the structure. I think it's remote, but an interesting complication.
Agreed.
You don't. Either you start a major fight, or you just give up the 18" or whatever the hell it is.
Wah.
We used to raise chickens. Chickens are notorious for smoking in bed...
...and for failing to replace the batteries in their smoke detectors.
Is a chicken coup the one where a general is afraid?
R
You will probably be better off "putting it away" and applying your energies to other things. The time to do something about it was when you were considering and negtiating for the purchase of the place.
Since you referred to the encroacher as a "stubborn old guy" I have to assume you've already discussed the matter with him and he's essentially said, "So what? Sue me if you don't like it." to you.
Chances are the lawyer's fees needed to pursue the matter to where you have an absolute right to tear down his stuff will be enough to make you think twice about it.
"Ah feel your pain", though.....
Three years ago some folks bought the house and land next door to us and before I knew what was happening the backhoes were enlarging their back yard it and the masons were building stone retaining walls on part of our property which lay beyond the hedges I'd put in to create a boundary on what we wanted to use as our back yard.
I'd forgotten exactly where the property line was , so I hired a surveyor to stake it out again, which cost a bit over $1,000. The survey showed that the new neighbor had beautified about 700 square feet of our property and was using it as though he owned it. He'd also plopped a prefab shed down, right against the property line, without regard to the town zoning requirement for a six foot setback.
I approached the neighbor about it and told him I'd feel OK about letting him use our land if he'd just reimburse me the proportional property taxes on it, about $100.00, once a year.
He stalled giving me an answer for weeks and when it became apparant he wasn't going to do that willingly, I asked a real estate lawyer in my Rotary Club about it. He said, "Fughedit, you aren't using that land anyway, and you'd spend a fortune in legal fees to end up having to live next to a neighbor who hates you."
I took his advice, life is too short to get my shorts twisted up for long over things like that.
FWIW our lot is "Registered Land" here in Massachussetts, which means adverse possession can't give the neighbor any rights, plus the statute time for adverse possession here is 20 years anyway.
Jeff
If he justs ignores it, besides having the coop and fence on his property, he could wind up losing the land under the coop too. Right now, if the coop is indeed on his property, the neighbor is meeting many of the requirements for adverse possession. However, he may not have met the time reqt which can be 20 years. If the owner just waits and does nothing, it could result in the neighbor having a valid adverse possession claim to the land under the coop.
Which is why he needs a lawyer familiar with the state laws.
According to :
Neighbor wars are _never_ worth the hassle, and they're always unpretty.
Consult a lawyer before doing anything precipitous, and explore _all_ of the options. Pissing off neighbors is always a bad thing.
I'm a bit confused, Jeff. You spoke with a lawyer but there are zoning laws and presumably building codes and permits required. Why not have the town take care of it? Wouldn't cost you a dime.
As far as living next to a neighbor that hates you... If a guy walks up to me and pisses on my shoes, I'm not really going to care all that much about his opinion of what I do next.
RHomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.