The fax Ma'am, just the fax.

[Mike_Duffy]

The following happens to me about once a month:

1) Someone attempts to phone me. However, I cannot hear the caller; simultaneously the caller cannot hear me. After a few seconds of this, both of us hang up.

2) A few seconds later, the original caller re-tries the call. My phone rings. When I answer, we can hear each other for a few seconds, but subsequently overlaid on top of the audio we both hear the distinctive sound of a fax machine attempting a transfer. After a few seconds of this, both of us hang up.

3) People who know me well are aware that 'The third time is the charm.' and will call again. Everything then works okay.

What I intend to do is buy a DPDT switch and embed it into a phone wire and actually connect my phone line to a fax machine. My multifunction scanner / printer does have fax phone ports. (i.e. 'Line' & 'Phone'). I intend to set it up for auto-answer, but switch the DPDT to Off-Off in order to avoid conflicts with my phone answering machine. The next time I hear the fax negotiating tone, I should have time to bridge my fax into the line before the sender abandons the connection attempt.

What do you all think? I'm hoping to get at least the setup metadata, if not an actual scan.

[gfretwell]

Could be interesting. I used to get some strange fax'es when I had a machine hooked up all the time.

[micky]

Maybe it would be easier to just use a Y connector to send the signal to the FAX machine too and when you hear the fax tones, turn off the phone machine answering**. OTOH, if you've already answered the phone, the phone machine won't answer anyhow. So maybe you just need a Y-connector.

**Mine has a button to do that, labeled "answer on/off", but I've had the gizmo for over 10 years and never used it, so I tend to forget it's there.

I think there's also a button to record a phone conversation, but I'm not sure and nothing seems to be labeled that. In that case, I think it's because I have to press another button first before the word "record" appears on the little screen.

(And on my DVDR is a way to delete multiple recordings at once. I had to search the manual to see how, and there's a button on the remote that I've never before used, and which, if it once had a label, it doesn't anymore.)

[Randy Stephenson]

If you can get a decent internet connection, dump that crusty old copper telegraph line and replace it with Google Voice.

[Terry Coombs]

  Great idea ! That way google will always have a copy of your phone conversations .

[Mike_Duffy]

I want the answering machine to work when I am away. I don't want human callers to become connected to the fax machine first.

[Mike_Duffy]

Incidentally, my current phone service is via a fibre optic connection (Bell). Prior, it was via an RJ-59 connection with a cable TV company (Videotron). Prior to that, it was via a veritable antique terminal block in my basement using a copper wire triple (Bell).

I have had the same problem as described upstream with all three types of phone service. I have called the providers in the past about this, but the response is usually that intermittent problems are almost impossible to diagnose, and they have never heard tell of anything similar. It seems to me that the problem is starting to present itself more often now than in the past. It's been that way for at least 20 years. While I was using dial-up via TP, I was certain that the problem was rooted in my fax / printer because it was connected at the time for the occaisional fax.

I will assemble the device as described prior. My subsequent sub-task is to find someone else who still has a fax machine in order to verify mine still works in auto-answer mode.

[trader_4]

Sure, that's nothing weird, just some unknown number trying to send you a fax. What Mike says is happening is very weird. I wonder if something in the system is partially shorted between his line and another line that has a fax machine on it? That scenario, that the fax machine thinks it's answering a fax line, seems logical, ie it's responding to the incoming call. In which case, his proposed test won't yield anything. Also, it may not be a fax, could be a modem. Is he sure he doesn't have anything at his location connected like that which he's forgotten about? A line into a modem card on some old PC for example?

Who is the phone service provider? I'd start by contacting them, being persistent and seeing if they have anything to say about what might be happening. They can run some diagnostics from their end to check the integrity of the line.

[Randy Stephenson]

Sorry to hear that.

I have not had a telecom problem since I switched to Comcast Internet and switched teh phone from POTS to Google Voice.

[Mike_Duffy]

It might be the first burst of handshake for such. I do actually have an old shoe-box sized cassette recorder with dongles to record any activity on my phone line. I should hook it up.

I thought about this. Since the 'handshake' between two fax machines is done via tones, it is possible that a one-way audio bridge might not be successful as you surmise. On the other hand, if audio is bridged both ways (i.e. both ends can 'hear' from the other fax), then it might work. I will also try to remember to hit 'mute' on my phone at the same time in order to mitigate noise on the line, but there is no way to tell my caller to do the same. Usually it seems to be my mother-in-law because most calls are from her anyways, and it is functionally impossible to tell her to do anything without a voluminous explanation.

I stopped hooking anything (neither fax machine & PC) to the phone line after upgrading from dial-up over copper pair to the cable TV phone service.

They have perfunctorily done so. Everything is 'A-OK'.

[trader_4]

So this is actually VOIP via cable then. Typically there are two ways that gets installed. One is to just use one phone system, eg a 4 handset cordless one and connect only that to the new VOIP connection at the new VOIP box. The second is to connect the new VOIP box to the existing house wiring, so service is available at all previous phone outlets within the house. Are you sure it's not connected as the latter? If so, some old widget that you've forgotten about could be the offender. Alarm system, for example? If it's connected as the latter, I would temporarily cut the VOIP off from the house wiring and just connect only a cordless phone or similar to the VOIP.

No surprise there, now that we know it's VOIP. No possibility of one line shorting to another with that.

[gfretwell]

He says he has fiber. There is nothing to short.

[Mike_Duffy]

This is exactly what I have done. I had to get rid of a phone with a real bell AND turn down volume on all ringers on phone devices without separate power sources so that my cable modem RJ45 (phone) port had enough power to make all my phones ring.

I just checked the wires from my old alarm system. There are 2 bell-style wires. They follow each other to the basement where one is tie-wrapped to an AC adapter. The other goes straight into the house phone system.

So it appears you are correct. If my memory serves me properly, I asked when it was installed, and the installer said was a 'sensor' to the home phone system. The intent is that if the copper wire pair is ever physically cut while the alarm system is 'armed', it would sound the siren. It would also use the phone system to contact their monitoring center for alarm situations other than the wire being cut.

Alarm system technology at that time likely used fax for such notifications. But I would surely notice it if the siren went off while I was at home. Then again, electronic components often fail in diverse functionally-hidden manners.

I will install the switch I mentioned and set up my fax for auto-answer. It should at least proove entertaining if not informative.

I have also been speculating that it is (will be) myself in the future telling my past (present) self what stocks to buy. If so, I'll post the circut diagrams for the tachyon transceiver fax interface here.

[trader_4]

If my memory serves me properly, I asked

Why don't you do the obvious, simple thing I suggested? Right now the VOIP is connected to the wiring in the whole house. Disconnect it and instead have it power just one phone. Typically that's what many people do anyway, connect a 4 phone base cordless base station and just use that. Then see if the problem persists.

It's also possible you have a defective VOIP box. If the cable company provided it, you can likely get them to swap it out. And since you now mention that you had some issues with the box being able to ring whatever all is on the house wiring, that might have something to do with it. What you think is a fax sound could be the VOIP box malfunctioning.

[Mike_Duffy]

Sure. But I am starting to feel a tad curious about the exact content of any messages sent from my alarm system to the company that installed it.

If the bridging switch does not work, I will try connecting the fax machine directly to the alarm system privately. (I can connect the wires together in the basement.)

This is extremely unlikely because it would require the copper wire AND both VOIP boxes to fail in the identical manner. (I.e. identical symptoms during several years each of service via wire, cable video, and now fiber.)

This is true. But it is also another reason to hook up the fax to the line. If I get a fax, either from my alarm system or the exterior, it proves that the problem is not with the VOIP box. Unless, of course, the fax message specicically states that it is a problem with the VOIP box. Like an intelligent etheral electromagnetic being trapped inside a piece of active electronics.

[trader_4]

That's only if it's actually what's happening and you can manage to intercept a fax. With it intermittent and other issues, good luck with that. Is the alarm still using the phone? Idk about all systems, but I remember modems not being reliable over VOIP and the cable company here saying alarms should not be using VOIP.

You are in charge.

Well, that's new important info too, that the same problem existed with both copper and two different VOIP systems. So then it's within your house.

The alarm system does not know that you connected it to VOIP. And you aren't likely to succeed in getting it to fax anything to your fax machine because both are expecting a phone system in between.

Like an

Sounds like you know best. You don't by chance mount your own tires at home, do you?

[Mike_Duffy]

Perhaps I was not clear because it was spread over two paragraphs:

Message-id: <orhzrbhrtih1$. [e-mail]>

More than one person within a house can simultaneously pick up different phones and speak to each other. The phones might 'expect' a phone system to provide the voltage that allows them to operate in this manner, but it is the VOIP port that provides the power in this case. I am guessing that the putative sender (alarm system) and receiver (fax machine set to auto-answer) will feed on the same red vs. green voltage potential.

As you have pointed out, the VOIP might not be capable of providing external connectivity. Perhaps the sender does not check for a dial tone, and just dials, waits a few seconds, then listens for a fax answer tone.

That went over my head.

[Clare Snyder]

Virtually evey Dax I've installed or used in the last 15 years has an auto-nrgatiate function. The fax plugs into the phone line. The phone plugs into the fax machine. The fax machine "snoops " the call and if it recognizes it as a fax call it picks up. If it doesn't, it passes it on to the phone. It is 100% transparent to the caller. It DOES need tobe enabled in the setup - tell it the phone and fax share a line with no distinctive ring with fax priority. If you set it up with phone priority you have to hit the recieve button on the fax when you hear the tone. Yoe MUST wire the phone through the fax for this to work.

The other option is a splitter and turn off the auto- answer on thefax. - but then the fax cannot answer if you are not there to pick up the phone and press the button.

Years ago I used a "fax-mate" automatic switcher - before fax machines started having them built in.

[Clare Snyder]

See my prevous post. Did it for years.

[trader_4]

What makes you think that your alarm system is capable of sending faxes? I've never heard of it. They do have MODEMS that communicate information using industry standards, eg to the monitoring company. Faxing seems very illogical for obvious reasons.

Aside from that, again, the obvious and logical way to diagnose your phone problem is to hook up a single phone or phone base station to the VOIP and see if the problem disappears. But carry on, you are in charge.

You seem to share some characteristics with another poster.