As it turns out, it'll be easier than getting the plumber to actually call back. This could be the best reason in the world to learn to do it myself. Why should I pay someone who takes a week to call back, after supposedly "checking to see who's got the regulators"?
I wear a pair of inexpensive cotton jersey gloves and wipe with them. As long as I pay attention to the condition of the glove, I don't get burned and the joints look good.
This wording could be misleading. Let's clarify: heat the *fitting* a little bit away from the joint.
(It sounds like you're advising to heat the pipe, and that's wrong.)
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Of course. The pipe would act like a heat sink. Not only that, but you might instinctively grab the pipe to steady yourself as you got off the ladder. That would result in a stream of obscenities which would frighten the children and piss off your wife. At that point, nobody knows what could happen next.
The first time I sweated a joint, after I was done it looked like a lead candle. Solder was everywhere running down the pipe. When it was tested to see joint would even hold, it sprayed water everywhere.
Less is better.
thx,
tom @
My guess: not a clean enough joint or not enough flux. Gobs of solder on the outside of the joint have absolutely no effect on the watertight seal necessary inside the joint. Some of my first joints were really globy, but they sealed nicely (to this day).
I disagree. Heat the pipe first, then the fitting a little away from the joint. Both the pipe and fitting should be hot so the solder will adhere to both. Just don't overheat either one or you will "burn the joint". You want the solder to suck into the joint by capillary action.
Stretch
This is incorrect.
Right, and that's exactly why you heat the fitting only, and not the pipe: to expand the fitting slightly so that capillary action will wick the solder into the joint. If you heat the pipe, you risk expanding the pipe so much that it's not possible to get enough solder into the joint to make a proper seal. There is enough contact between the pipe and the fitting that heating only the fitting gets the pipe plenty hot enough to do the job.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Doug,
That's funny.
When they first came out with copper tubing and fittings back in the late 40s to early 50s, All the fittings were cast brass. They all had grooves cut inside around the fitting, 1/2 way down the socket, because they believed the solder would not draw in if the fitting was tight. There was a hole drilled in the side of the fitting so you could feed the solder into the groove. They made them that way for about 10 years. Then they started taking old joints apart and found that the solder sucked up inside the socket even if the fitting was tight. Of course it is not so easy to take the wrot fittings apart, so you don't see that. When I started plumbing, my grandfather had us young guys clean old brass fittings, because in those days we salvaged them and used them over if they were in good shape (he learned to do that during WWII because it was hard to get new fittings and pipe at any price). So I spent my spare tine taking old joints apart and saving the fittings. The solder sucked up inside the tight ones just fine. Now we have forgotten that. Maybe you should start buying fittings with grooves inside them again.
Heat the tubing a little, then the fitting, then apply the solder. Then take it apart. You will find the solder sucked inside just fine. If you are brazing and don't heat the pipe at all, you will get a very shallow joint. If you take the joints apart, you will see what I mean.
Stretch
Maybe you could quote a little context when you post, so that we don't have to guess at what you're talking about?
[snip ancient history]You can make your soldered joints any way you like. But you should realize that you're doing newbies a disservice when you advise them to heat the pipe and the fitting: that's *not* the best way to make the joints. The joints are easier to make, and less likely to leak, when only the fitting is heated. It's just plain silly to advise someone who's never soldered copper before to heat the pipe first. There is a better and easier way to do it.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
I've commented about this before, most of the time your way will work but a newbie is more likely to screw up heating the fitting only. If the interior pipe is not up to temp the solder will not amalgamate with the pipe. The result is a weak joint and sooner or later a leak. My formal training comes from a Carrier Corp. factory training class, with an instructor who spent years on their condenser assembly line. To sum up the two days I spent on this part of the training. Use plenty of torch, start heating the pipe, keep the torch moving, when the pipe is hot move the torch onto the fitting and use the flame to draw the solder into the fitting. Your way may be easier but it's not better. Dave
Which is exactly why you heat the fitting, and apply the solder to the pipe. If the pipe isn't hot enough, the solder won't melt, and you keep heating. Nothing difficult about that...
Easier *is* better. :-)
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Maybe for the installer, but not for the owner. :-(
Dave
...snip disc^h^h^h^h argument over "pipe-first" or "fitting-only" solder technique...
I'll side w/ Dave here, Doug...similar experience w/ training for production work, same technique.
The amount of heating required to heat the pipe to solder-melt point isn't enough to expand the pipe to the point of constricting the gap between it and the pipe and it's much easier to ensure both are hot enough more quickly by adding hit to the pipe initially rather than relying solely on the (relatively) poor conduction across that same gap between the two not fully contacting surfaces...
I'm averaging everything I've read here. The practice begins this afternoon, and it's show time tomorrow. I'll let you all know if the basement's dry, or if I'm online looking to buy trout to stock my new pond. :-)
You can make your soldered joints any way you like. But you should realize that you're doing newbies a disservice when you advise them to heat the pipe and the fitting: that's *not* the best way to make the joints. The joints are easier to make, and less likely to leak, when only the fitting is heated. It's just plain silly to advise someone who's never soldered copper before to heat the pipe first. There is a better and easier way to do it.
-- Doug, the people who make copper fittings and the people who make soldering alloys do test soldering all the time. They use different methods to see what is the best way. Then they cut the joints apart to see which way makes the best joints. They also pressure test ant stress test the joints till they fail. I have been to a number of seminars in addition to doing soldering and brazing for the last 35 years. The research shows that it is best to heat the pipe first, then the fitting. Keep the torch moving all the time. That will make the strongest, leak free joints. The best way to start is to do it the best way.
Stretch
:)
Good luck, it really isn't hard...like most things, people have their own preferences...
BTW, I intended to point out to the "close up the gap" faction that when the fitting is heated, it will expand as does the pipe so the differential expansion is essentially the same between the two mating pieces--ergo, the gap doesn't actually close.
Right - but if the pipe is heated, and the fitting not heated (or heated less than the pipe), then the gap *will* close (or at least shrink), and then expand as the joint cools. That's not good.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Never mind the "yeah, but's" and the "what if's".
You can not make a good joint unless BOTH the pipe and the fitting are hot enough to melt the solder. If either of them is not at least that hot, you will not obtain a good joint. PERIOD!
rusty
Nobody here ever contended otherwise. What's got your panties in a wad?
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Have something to add? Share your thoughts — no account required.
Ask the community — no account required