service box expansion

On the meter, contact the power company to find out what their policy might be.

Some don't care. Some will come out and remove the seal and restore it when you call back.

Some require a licensed electrician who also holds a Master Beautician ticket, permits from the city, inspections, and a blessing from the local priest.

Reply to
HeyBub
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100 amp service is rather imited these days. I would consider upgrading.

One thing to be careful about is that the boxes are not just limited by service amps, they also have a total circuit limit. If you look at new boxes you will see this in the box speciifications. That means that even though you theoretically can double the breakers by using half sized ones you may still be exceeding the total circuit limit for the box. There is also a special load calculation that you need to do to decide how many breakers you can put off your 100 amp service.

And you are correct, you need to use regular sized breakers for 220. This is because those smaller "double" breakers share a single lug behind them. To get 220 the breaker has to connect to 2 lugs.

Many breaker manufacturers including GE make both half size single pole breakers, and half sized double pole breakers. Murray actually makes a half sized quad (two double pole breakers)

Reply to
RBM
100 amp service is rather imited these days. I would consider upgrading.

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Maybe if you have a couple of teenagers or a hot tub.

I replaced my panel with 100 amp only but I did take the dryer and stove off the grid. They are gas.

Reply to
The Henchman

In some areas that works fine, in other areas all it does is create headaches. In my experience you are usually better of just going the "git 'er done" route, cutting the seal, pulling the meter, doing your work, putting the meter back and being done with it. I've never had any complaints doing this in several areas, and if someone complains, just go into the "damned vandal kids" routine.

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In some areas that's against the law.

Reply to
The Henchman

around here meters are read by radio, no one physically looks at the meter anymore.

that makes me wonder if tampering will increase?

Reply to
hallerb

Whoop-dee-doo

Reply to
Pete C.

Reply to
RBM

I agree. Just pull it, do your work and be done. No phone calls, no nothing. They'll put a seal back on it. _IF_ they ever come out. Our meter hasn't been physically read for years, if ever.

Reply to
Steve Barker

You got some documentation on that? What "area" are you referring to?

Reply to
Steve Barker

Whoop-dee-doo

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With electronic meters, if you are caught tampering, and almost all electronic meters catch tampering, you will be charge on average a tampering tariff of 10 cents a kwhr. Thus you will willingly be paying twice the market rate for electricity.

Your choice.

Reply to
The Henchman

How do they catch tampering? Only way I can think is if the meter is unresponsive while it is being polled. That can't be often.

I've seen some real battles between the power company and those trying to keep their electricity on. I've never heard of the power company (Southern) fining anyone for damage or illegal usage. They will take down the line, rather than fine, eventually.

What they do here is just install a physical locking device that runs around the meter. If that doesn't "work" then the line comes down.

YMMV.

Jeff

Reply to
Jeff Thies

I haven't done it, but I presume that whatever appliance ckts appear in the dining room have to originate on an AFCI breaker, and if those ckts appear on the kitchen countertop they have to be a GFCI receptacle or downstream from a GFCI receptacle.

================= I suspect you saw - where you are extending a circuit that is not AFCI protected to add a receptacle where the NEC requires the new receptacle be AFCI, the 2011 NEC requires an AFCI receptacle at the start of the extension to protect downstream (or change the breaker to AFCI, or some other possibilities). If they could I suspect there would have been a requirement that the source breaker be AFCI, but the NEC applies to the new part of the wiring.

And for replacement receptacles on non-AFCI protected circuits where the NEC now requires AFCI protection, the replacement receptacle has to be AFCI starting in 2014 (some other possibilities).

As of when the 2011 code-change book was written there were no AFCI receptacles.

Reply to
bud--

That makes sense to me. I haven't had the scenario to date. My thought was to just run separate circuits to any location that requires AFCI protection, and keep kitchens separate, especially when considering the wiring to the first outlet rule. I would also be a little concerned taping a GFCI off of an AFCI, although I have no reason to believe it would be problematic. I also have not yet seen an AFCI receptacle

Reply to
RBM

I don't know about US code but Canadian code requires an outlet on every counter surface larger than 12 inches, and one every 6 feet, minimum. Plus one for the fridge, dishwasher, microwave and any other dedicated fixed appliance. This would require more than 2 breakers. Also my house has a 100 amp service but because all circuits are very lightly loader, and the house is spread out, I have three branch breaker boxes to provide enough breakers.

Reply to
EXT

a meter could be designed to report in any time theres a power failure.

now assume the thief pulls the meter and installs the jumper. theres been a power failure, later the meter reports in a 10 minute power failure at time X but none of its adjacent meters do.

thief busted:)

Reply to
hallerb

Maybe when building a new house, it would be worth it to install an in-line shutoff between meter base and service panel? Or is that illegal? I assume SOMEBODY out there makes a suitable device. Like most DIYs, I'm not real comfortable working on an open service panel- I keep looking up at those main lugs upstream of the Big Breaker, lest they pounce when I'm not looking... :^/

(When I was a kid, the main shutoff was directly behind meter base, in the storage cabinet out on the carport. The rest of service panel was

40-some conduit feet away, in the traditional location in basement. 40 years since I've seen it, so I am a little fuzzy on the details, but I think the thing on the carport had a side handle and lockout holes.)
Reply to
aemeijers

U.S. Nec is similar in that it requires a minimum of 2-20 amp circuits for general use counter outlets. Other fixed appliances cannot be fed by these same 2 circuits, except for the refrigerator, however the OP is planning to run two more circuits for the fridge and washer. We also must install a receptacle at any counter space 12" or larger, but any counter space must be within 2 feet of a receptacle making our placement a little tighter at every

4 feet
Reply to
RBM

a meter could be designed to report in any time theres a power failure.

now assume the thief pulls the meter and installs the jumper. theres been a power failure, later the meter reports in a 10 minute power failure at time X but none of its adjacent meters do.

thief busted:)

If it was that simplistic your thief could just wait for a power failure to install his jumper

Reply to
RBM

Or take a .22 rifle and shoot a fuse off a pole. ^_^

TDD

Reply to
The Daring Dufas

| Maybe when building a new house, it would be worth it to install an | in-line shutoff between meter base and service panel? Or is that | illegal? I assume SOMEBODY out there makes a suitable device.

The co-op where I just had a service installed requires a meter box with a main breaker disconnect ("meter main") so they certainly seem to be legal. The thing I don't like is that there is just a flimsy cover on the breaker (they supposedly let you have a little lock for it but I haven't seen that yet) allowing anybody to easily shut off your power from outside. Also, even if the little cover is locked, the entire lower panel that includes it (i.e., the half that does not contain the meter) just has a co-op seal so anybody can still turn off the power without pulling the meter if they are willing to break a seal. (I would have thought that the non-meter lower panel covers the "customer side" of the enclosure but I guess the co-op doesn't want the customer to have access to any of it. I'm not sure why they couldn't put their own lock on that part, though.)

Dan Lanciani ddl@danlan.*com

Reply to
Dan Lanciani

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