roof leak

[tom]

Like I said earlier, check that the flashing below the window laps out onto the shingles. No shingles should be nailed onto the top of the flashing. Tom

[coloradotrout]

The caulk above the trim looks good. It appears well sealed all along the top of the window (atop the trim).

[coloradotrout]

Ok.. this might be the issue. There is flashing under the siding that laps out onto the shingles. Then shingles lay overtop the flashing (the flashing is barely visible -- but that is why I took some of those extra pics to show that flashing does lie below). If you look carefully at a couple of those pics, (the one with my finger in the bottom left for example), it seems to me that the nail passes through the shingle, through the flashing, and then on through whatever lies below (another shingle, then the sheathing).

What is the proper way to flash and shingle this area?

[tom]

According to the instructions on every package of shingles. Tom

[Kerry L.]

Actually, you pointed out a few things, which stand out.

I won't even go into how the roof was installed going up along the dormer.

1. You noticed the "gap" between the window & trim. I'm going to _assume_ a lot, since we don't know _if_ flashing is where it should be, or not. Even if it's where it should be, we do not know how any window flashing would overlap the front (apron) flashing for the juncture of the wall/roof. Especially since the window sill would not allow apron flashing to run up the wall. I would caulk the gap along the window & window trim. Also, would caulk along where window sill & trim meets, and where the window meets sill. Use something decent like SW 50 yr acrylic/latex. Snip the tube for a small hole, try to caulk in between, not just the surface. Tool the area after caulking with a wet finger or sponge.
2. I've seen people put shingles over apron flashing, I never liked the idea. Some condominium associations around here require it, for aesthetics. It a water trap waiting to happen. We do _not_ know how large the flashing is under those shingles. We do _not_ know if there is flashing under those shingles. I noticed in this picture , the apron flashing & shingle butt joint fall on the same seam. Although flashing should be overlapped, this wouldn't be a huge problem. But, we do _not_ know if it is overlapped, or if all flashing is this small. I always did at least 4" bent similar to this. .
3. The sidewall step flashing, looks like it does not run past the dormer. Some people like it to stop at the dormer, like yours appears to. But, if you run it a little longer, to give it a kick _past_ not really a kick _out_, it will carry the elements away from the corner. This _could_ be a problem in your case, but it may not be.
4. To do it right, I would remove those shingles, which are on top of the suspect apron flashing. But, in any case, at the very least I would drive any & all fastener heads in, and apply a quality sealant (not caulk). For this area, neoprene appears to be the longest lasting, it may not be best in extreme areas of heat. Don't forget to caulk all around the window. 8-)

Believe it or not, I would find this a fun challenge. I used to do all our trouble shooting and flashing work. That's b/4 that age thing crept up on me.

Please do an update, when & if you find the problem.

[Oren]

I agree, the window is suspect for leaks (who done it). Given the window is above the leak/stain in the adjacent bath below.

One thing to check is that the bottom weep holes are not clogged. Even worse! The windows was installed upside down.

[coloradotrout]

So caulk here,

That small gap between the trim board and the aluminum ( the first gap you see going left to right) ?

What kind of caulk?

I want to use the absolute best product for this. Would clear silicone be OK? GE Silicone II ?

Should I spead a 1" diameter patch over the nails, especially this one..

The roofing cement that I have is Black Jack 2172 Asphalt roof patch.

If you look closely at this pic..

It seems like the nail goes through the flashing. These are the nails right below that window all along the top row of shingles.

[RicodJour]

Excellent analysis, Kerry. The age thing may have crept up on you - mine seems to be running! ;) - but you've lost nothing. I'll reinforce your words in my reply to the OP.

BTW, post more often. We need experience and sharp minds.

R

[RicodJour]

Lexel makes an excellent caulk that is paintable, clear and durable.

No. Do not use silicone caulk on anything that will be painted. Paint won't stick to it and you'll be very sorry when it comes time to repaint.

All roof cements are pretty much the same. Karnak is the more common pro brand around here, but what you have is fine for a temporary repair.

CT, this is what I was talking about when I was begging for the additional pictures. You do not have a roof-snot curable problem. As a bandaid, sure, put some on that nail head - all of the nail heads while you're at it. Collect some of the colored roof granules from the gutter or scrape some off of a spare shingle. After you dab a bit of roof cement on the nail heads, sprinkle some of the colored granules on and lightly press them into the cement. It'll help hide things. In your case it's not so critical because you really should be fixing what is ailing your roof, and that's what Kerry told you a bit earlier.

Just as it's very difficult to waterproof a basement from the inside, it's really tough to make a roof tight from the top layer. Water is a sneaky bastard and it will find it's way around the little barriers you throw in its way.

My suspicion that the roofer (hack) nailed through the flashing turned out to be correct. Flashing should not be penetrated by nails if at all possible, and it's always possible to find a way to prevent penetrating it. What should have been done is the apron flashing (the flashing that is below that window) should have been longer, exposed and the front/lowest edge should have been turned under on a sheet metal brake (called hemming - and it stiffens the edge of the flashing and keeps it straight and neat, and prevents capillary action).

If the flashing is done correctly it will be very neat, and color coordinated flashing should be used so it would be hardly noticeable against the roofing. The window itself is a major concern as I would bet dollars to donuts that the apron flashing did not wrap up and over the bottom framing of that window opening. That is the only way to prevent a leak with a window that is sitting on the roof.

You have a decision to make, and it is basically do you want to hire someone to straighten out the flashing/roofing/window problems, which could run into some serious change, or to stick bandaids on the problem and live with a recurring leak situation in your house. Your house is pretty new - the leaks won't diminish over time, and the repeated repairs are just as likely to make things worse as better.

Here's a link to a copper site that has good info on flashing:

Aluminum is a little different, but not much. If a potential contractor doesn't see the benefits of how that link shows flashing to be installed, then he does not know what he is doing, so keep looking.

The concealed cleats are an excellent way to keep flashing in place without penetrating the flashing with nails. The hems and other interlocks conceal the fasteners and keep the flashing in place and tight against the roof. What your house suffered was someone who cut some corners and threw in some nails to keep the flashing flat. It's like trying to lose weight by cutting off some toes.

Here's another link showing how flashing is supposed to be done - watch the long link, you may have to cut and paste into your browser address bar:

R

[clare]

Silicone II IS paintable.

[Red Green]

RicodJour wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Never used Lexel. Any idea how it compares to the PL polyurethanes?

[coloradotrout]

Ok.. so basically..

roof should have been shingled up to the dormer window, then flashing applied atop the shingles and against the unsided wall then the wall sided from the bottom upwards

In essence.. the "shingling" overlap approach would have been continued up the roof and onto the walls.

That flashing should be visible -- as it should be sitting on top of the to shingles. As it is, it's tucked under the shingles, and the shingles are nailed into it. Now... just maybe.. had those top row of nails not been there (and the rest of the way up the wall is done correctly) it might have been ok. But those top shingles had to be secured somehow -- so they were nailed.

Also, anywere a nail head is seen -- is probably bad ??? By comparison -- albeit most pathetic -- I shingled for the 1st time -- my chicken coop -- simple gable roof. I put drip edge on, then shingled from top to bottom, then put the ridge shingles on. The ONLY Place a nail head is seen is the last piece of ridge -- 2 nails , one on either side (and I suppose I should dab on some roofing cement).

I have nail heads exposed all over the place on my house roof.

The leak is not bad -- we get some pretty heavy rains here. I suppose I need to see if I can reach the spot in the attic, but I'm doubtful I can. The floor to that window bottom is only about 2 feet. Maybe I can see with a flashlight the area though.

Maybe a tornado will wipe us out this next spring and we can start over ;-)

[Kerry L.]

Thanks for the kind words, something you don't see on Usenet often!

[Kerry L.]

Follow Rico's advice.

I would not use Silicone either, even if it says paintable. I have seen Silicone used on nail heads, chimneys, & wood trim. Silicone appears to have a problem with heat or UV rays or the combination of the two. Once it starts to fail, you might as well grab an end, and just tug. It comes off rather easily.

You do not need to make a patch any larger than the area you absolutely need to cover.

I'm not a fan of Black Jack, but if that is what you have, might as well use it. It's not like you're going to ruin the job. The roofer already took care of that. Black Jack dries out too quick, the oil properties are not long lasting. Just my opinion of course.

Looking at this picture

, it appears there is flashing under the shingles. Unless my eyes are deceiving me, I see what looks like 4" galvanized between the butt joints of those shingles. That row of shingles should've been worked under the flashing.

Sometimes you will have exposed nails, like the last 2 nails for ridge cap. Or, _sometimes_ to hold existing flashing down. But, never leave any nails exposed where the elements can penetrate. I see you have exposed fastener heads on the step flashing, near the corner of the dormer. Goodness, those nails shouldn't even be there. Make sure you dab every visible nail head, kinda smear it around. Don't forget to drive the nails b/4 dabbing. You could pull them, but might open up another can of worms.

[RicodJour]

Sheesh. Will you stop getting in the way of good advice just to give partial/bad advice? Please! It's getting old, you're not helping the OP, and you just look foolish.

GE makes six or seven Silicone II caulks for different applications, and only one of them is paintable. Oddly enough they list their paintable silicone caulk as GE Silicone II* Paintable Silicone.

The OP didn't specify a particular caulk as he's not up on these things. He asked about a family of caulks - probably without realizing it. The safe answer, as opposed to the "sure, just put some roof snot on it" type of answer, is to say no, don't use silicone. Besides, silicone is a poor choice for many caulking jobs. It's great in bathrooms, but it's way down on the list for most exterior jobs as there are superior alternatives. Any of the polyurethane caulks by Sika or 3M, for instance, or the Lexel I mentioned earlier.

I find it very odd that earlier in the thread you recommended a particular brand of roof cement, where there is no appreciable difference between brands and little between products, but see no difference in caulk formulations where there is a tremendous difference.

R

[coloradotrout]

R,

So what exterior caulks are recommended for a particular job?

We can start with caulking around door and window trip to the siding. That would seem the most important. Then what's next? I need to do a good inspection of this house.

[coloradotrout]

Give me a couple of roofing cement recommendations please. Even if I have to, I'll shop another place besides Lowes and HD. Lowes had the BlackJack. HD stocks Henry I think. On that photo you reference -- exactly -- I took that photo to show the shingle atop the flashing and that nail has to be going through it. That's what caused me to start looking around and thus the other photos. I'm not liking this a bit. The house was built in 2000. I'd sure like to get 20 years on the roof. I might have to take an annual trek atop with a bucket of snot.

[coloradotrout]

In all those photos you see the same theme -- shingles atop flashing and nails through both. I'm going to take some more photos as I recall seeing rows of nails in a few other places. Uuuughhhhh.

[coloradotrout]

window TRIM.. not trip..

[clare]

You won't get 20 yeaers on the roof. We had a 25 year roof installed on our house and it needed replacement in 13 years. And it WAS properly installed. We didn't have any leaks, and didn't loose any shingles in wind storms, but there were areas that had lost most of the "chips" and places where the shingles were cracking - so we replaced it while there were no leaks and the weather was good.