still have some questions on my specific setup.
> I will need a 240V 50Amp GFCI breaker for the tub per the manuf. >
> This is what I have now:
> Main panel and subpanel in the basement
> Subpanel is:
>
> 3 wire comming from the main panel (Square D 50amp 120/240vac AIC
> 10,000 breaker) going to the subpanel which has 2 breakers in the
> middle that read 30amp for each one hooked together with a plastic
> harness going out to the air conditoner then 2 15amp breakers on
> either side for lighting in the basement. The wire going out from the
> 2 30amp breakers go outside to another panel
>What wire is missing? You should have 2 hot leads, one from each pole in
>that 240v breaker, a neutral, and a ground, for a total of 4 wires. You
>have to have the 2 hots or you won't have 240v. You have to have a neutral
>or you can't get the 120v for your lites. So no ground wire? Red Flag.
First off I bought this house 2 years ago so im just trying to figure out what they did, none of this I did. I think they ran out of room in the main breaker when they finished the basement so they added the 2
15 and 30 2pole to the sub box then, cuase i can see where they had the a/c in the main panel then crossed it out and wrote SUB.
Yes there is 4 wires I just missed the white one. There is a Red, Black, White, and Ground going to the Subpanel.
Outside panel is:
>
> 2 wires going into the outside screws for the Line then 2 wires on the
> inside for Load going into the air condenser, and both ground wires
> hooked to a plate in the center screw. There is also a black
> cartedrige that you pull out on this box, im assuming this is a
> disconnect box.
>
> With that in mind this is what im planning:
>
> I do not have any other available positions in the main panel for
> expansion for my tub. So instead of incurring the cost to add another
> subpanel now I would like to use the existing A/C subpanel for my new > hot tub.
>Save the long response to your post if you want. Your a/c subpanel won't
>work if it's fed with 10 gauge wire.
>There a lot of other things wrong with your idea, but the 10 gauge feed is a
>show stopper.
Yes I agree now that 10gauge wire, im planning on replacing the feed from the subpanel to the outside disconnect with #6 in conduit, sound right?
Question #1: The wire going from the subpanel(inside) to the
> disconnect box(outside) is a Type NM-B 600Volts 10/2 Operator 18. Will
> this be good enough for the hottub load? (240v 40amp 60hz tub specs),
> if not what size wire should I get?
>No. You need 6 gauge copper THHN/THWN wire for 50 amps. Ten gauge is WAY
>TOO SMALL.
>You will need a minimum of 6 gauge copper the entire length of your run, all
>the way from whatever panel you place the breaker in, to the spa
itself.
That includes the feed to that panel. Any less and you fail code, and risk
>fire.
>The feed to your sub panel must be large enough to handle the demand on that
>panel. No matter what sub panel you tap, your main panel is what is feeding
>the spa power. So starting from the main panel, all the way to the spa, you
>need a minimum of 6 gauge copper. And 6 gauge copper is only good up to 60
>amps. So if you are feeding a 50 amp tub, and and a/c and some
lighting
circuits, 4 gauge copper may be in order from your main panel to the first
>sub panel. That is good for up to 100 amps.
>Also, does you spa need a neutral wire for a 120v leg? Most do.
Ok, So as i mentioned above I was wrong and I do have 4 wire #6 going
2' from the main to the subpanel, so if I run #6 from the (inside) subpanel to the (outside) disconnect (through the existing conduit) I should be fine right? I guess im not clear on the A/C, i will NOT be using the A/C at all, Im just using the existing subpanel/AC disconnect for my hot tub, in the spring I know I will need to replace the whole main panel and go from 100amp to 200amp service and then hoook back up the A/C.
Question #2: I think I will need to replace the subpanel breakers and
> get 50amp 2 pole is this correct? If so I still need to have the 2
> 15volts there for my basement lights so will this be ok? Do they sell
> 50amp 2 pole with 2 15amp breakers? Basiclly I want to chage the 2
> middle ones from 30 to 50 but it looks like its all one unit,so I
> would need to buy a untit with all 4 this sound right?
>No it does not. Have you ever pulled the cover off this sub panel? These
>breakers should all be individual.
>Something sounds a bit fishy here. Why do you want to pull your 30 amp
>breakers? They must be feeding something, and you can't just
increase the
breaker size. I supect these 30 amp breakers are protecting 10 gauge wire,
>which isn't even close to handling 50 amps. Plus whatever these 30 amp
>breakers is protecting (your a/c?) may require 30 amp breakers
maximim.
Leave this be.
>You need to add a new circuit for your spa.
Yes I have pulled it off , they look like all one block, unless the screws on the ends of the 15 amps just unscrew and they come apart? Is this how it is? I am sending you the pics of it so you can see what I mean.
Yes the 30amp breakers are protecting the 10 gauge wire, but like I said I don't need the A/C until Summer anyways so I would like to just replace the 10 gauge wire with #6 THNN and pull out the 10gague from the disconnect and use the preexisitng A/C disconnect for the spa, it would be around 20' away from the spa and in viewable distance. So would I be able to increase the breaker size if I did what I explain here? Basiclly could I just pull out the whole subpanel and replace with a 240v 50amp GFCI breaker box kit for Hottubs that they sell at Lowes/Home Depot?
Question #3: I should not have to change anything in the main panel
> because its already 50amp 120/240Vac going to the subpanel right?
>This tells me that your sub panels are not up to carrying the extra load for
>your spa. You can't feed a 50 amp spa, 30 amps of a/c and lighting circuits
>off of a 50 amp feed.
>Again Im only feeding the 50amp spa and the lighting circuits not the 30amp a/c
> Question #4: I need to put the GFCI breaker somewhere since I already
> have a disconnect box outside that I want to use for the hot tub, can
> I just buy a GFCI type breaker that I described in Question 2?, or
> does the GFCI breaker HAVE to be outside in viewable distance of the
> hot tub, or can that be just the disconnect that I already have out > there?
>There needs to be a form of disconnect no closer than 5' to the spa, and in
>the line of sight from the spa.
>This disconnect can be your GFCI breaker, or it can be any other code
>approved disconnect. Mine is a 60 amp non fused a/c disconnect. You still
>need the 50 amp GFCI breaker to protect the spa wiring, but it can be in
>your main panel, or a sub panel, assuming that the sub panel meets the
>capacity of your 50 amp feed. Ant that assumes that the wiring from your
>main panel all the way to your spa is rated for the load it needs to carry.
>I don't think you can do what you propose and still meet code.
>Not to mention the risk of fire from overloading the wiring.
This is where I would just use the GFCI box to replace the existing subpanel in the basement, the wire from the main will be #6 awg THNN all the way from the main box through the GFCI subpanel Through the exisitng A/C disconnect to the Spa, this ok?
Question #5: I am going to run 4wire #6 AWG THNN Wire in liquid tight
> conduit (copper wire) from the disconnect to the tub, does this sound
> ok and the distance will be 30' is that ok?
>The NEC limits the length of this type of conduit to a maximum of 6', I
>believe.
>It is not allowed to have a 30' spa feed of this type of conduit. You could
>use rigid PVC and transition to the sealtite once you get closer to the spa.
ok thats what i thought, so I would purchase 30' of 4 wire #6 THNN and then put it in rigid PVC from the disconnect to say 24' then the last
6' use you say sealtite? is that just another kind of PVC conduit? meaning it doesnt have the wire inside it, just a tube? Trying to figure out how I would put 2 different types of conduit together at the part where it goes from PVC to the sealtite? Can you elaborate?
> Any other suggestions would be welcomed, also I have pics of all the
> breakers/panels that I have mentioned if you want me to email them to > you
>I suggest you dump the idea of feedint this spa from any of the sub panels
>you describe.
How about now since I made those changes?
I also suggest you get real familiar with the code requirements for spa's.
>They can be quite complicated. For instance, if your spa has a
light, you
have to have the entire run of wire feeding your spa be in approved conduit,
>all the way from your main panel to the spa.
which it is now, if i use the PVC and sealtite that you mentioned right?
And this cable cannot beromex, uf, etc. It must be THHN/THWN or
similar. >This is because spa'swith lights need an insulated ground from the source of >power all the way tothe spa. Romex cable does not have an insulated ground. >So if any of thewire feeding any of your sub panels is out of conduit, or >does not have aninsulated ground, you cannot legally connect your spa to it.
Does this mean the inside 4wire #6 connecting the main to the subpanel has to be in conduit? Its in the dry basement???
If you spa hasno light, then this rule does not apply.
>Then there are bonding requirements, and you need a 120v GFI outlet
no closer >than 10' to the spa.
Lots of rules, assuming you want to meet the current NEC code. And assuming
>you life in the USA.
What does this mean bonding reqirements? I have heard on different posts that you need the regular 120V GFI but why? Will a regular outside recepticle already out on the deck count? I think its already a GFI circuit.