Question just about the order of pipe dope sealant and teflon tape

On 5/11/2013 2:17 PM, DD_BobK wrote: ...

The _loading_ is same because the dimensions are the same but the stress is per unit area and there's more material so the actual stress is lower.

Meself, I think they just blew it on that part...

The weakest link in a Sch 40 threaded joint w/ a Sch 80 fitting will still be the section of threaded Sch 40 not inside the fitting (think of a female coupling/tee, say, w/ a male pipe for example).

Certainly it is true one doesn't want to over-torque a plastic fitting, particularly the female that is in tension but it certainly is not true that the same stress at the same thread depth on a Sch 80 has the same stress as a Sch 40 because it does have that extra thickness.

Reply to
dpb
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On 5/11/2013 2:32 PM, dpb wrote: ...

Being as the following was my posting I'll edit it a little in place...

The above previously wasn't written very well, unfortunately. I recast it some while writing and didn't get all the edits that could intended done, sorry. I made a couple of minor fixes above that at least help but I'll not worry about it further...

I'll just add that loading-->force; stress--> force/unit area. The geometry (hence tightening) controls loading of this portion of the total load; they're correct there. But loading isn't the same thing as stress; it's only the numerator.

Reply to
dpb

When I put pipe dope on my suspenders, they never leak.....

Reply to
Robert

They're just saying that using Schedule 80 fittings is treating the symptom, not the disease. They're saying that the disease of plastic female threaded fittings splitting when tightened can be cured by using a proper thread sealant instead of using pipe dope or teflon tape on plastic threads.

They're saying that the use of either teflon tape or pipe dope on plastic threaded fittings will increase the wedging action of the male pipe threads, thereby increasing the liklihood that the female fitting will split.

So, the admonition against switching to Schedule 80 female threaded fittings is that it's not addressing the real problem. If people used a thread sealant instead of pipe dope or teflon tape, there wouldn't be the increased splitting force on the female fitting, and there wouldn't be any splitting problem. So, switching to Schedule 80 female plastic fittings to avoid splitting is not really solving the problem. The real solution is found in using thread sealant instead of pipe dope and/or teflon tape to avoid the splitting problem altogether, rather than buy stronger fittings that will stand up to the greater splitting force.

Basically, if the square peg won't go into the round hole, you need to realize that you need a round peg, not a bigger hammer. In this case, the analogy is that if your female plastic fittings are splitting, you need to realize that the cause is the pipe dope or teflon tape your using, and you need to use thread sealant instead, not use a stronger female fitting.

Reply to
nestork

or they're being over-torqued if not using tape or metal pipe dope.

That's a better summary of the point they're trying to make than theirs... :)

Now granted the _strain_ is the same as it's the dimensionless ratio of the distance moved/turn and the geometry of a Sch 40 or Sch 60 or 80 fitting is the same so the geometries do cancel out. But the _stress_ in psi induced by that same strain is less for the fitting with more material in it--if that weren't so it wouldn't be possible to design for higher pressures by adding material because it wouldn't matter is the conclusion that statement leads to. That clearly just isn't so so they've confused the writeup in that regard.

Granted the weak point is as they state w/ the notching effect of the threading but there's still significantly more material left behind in a heavier fitting than the lighter and that does make a difference.

Certainly it shouldn't be/isn't necessary to use heavier fittings if properly assembled (or the matching fittings are under-designed) is their main point and that anything that actually causes deformation of the fitting is detrimental. Those are certainly common sense conclusions as well.

Reply to
dpb

I've never done plastic plumbing except some glued PVC long ago, but have dealt some with plastic threaded fittings. Besides the stress on the female, the threads themselves are much more easily deformed than galvanized. IOW, strippable. It's too easy to wrap too much tape on plastic, so my first thought was to just use a dope that can squeeze out, and relieve stress, Didn't know about "sealers," but if I worked with plastic I'd find out what to use for the particular plastic. Trickier than galvanized really, which I've done a lot of. There's always some danger listening to "old-timer" advice if they aren't current on "technology." I'm a long-time fisherman - like my dad's entire family - and it wasn't until I started reading fishing magazines that I found out about the improved clinch knot and started using it. Told my dad it had something like double the strength of the simple double overhand knot he used and I had used. He ignored me of course. Then one time we were fishing in Ontario, and he hooked a big Northern. Line broke when we almost had it landed. I showed him the curl at the end of his line where it had broke at the knot. He used the improved clinch after that. Now I understand there's something better than the improved clinch knot. Six-turn San Diego jam. I'll have to check that out. Sounds interesting.

Reply to
Vic Smith

So with Sched 40 pipe, no Sched 80 fittings.right??

Reply to
clare

When I put pipe dope on my suspenders, they never leak.....

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

...

Well, that's not QUITE what it says...it says Sch 80 isn't be needed on Sch 40 properly installed...Sch 80 is overkill but can't really hurt anything.

Can't hurt unless again they're severely over-torqued...

What it's really trying to say is that Sch 40 fittings _properly_installed_ are all that a Sch 40 system needs to meet the pressure requirements that Sch 40 is rated to hold. (Which, of course, only makes sense else't a component would be underdesigned in comparison with the rest of the same components.)

What they're driving at is as the other responder said above is that the correct solution to splitting Sch 40 fittings isn't to go to Sch 60 or Sch 80 and get by w/ over-tightening them but to install Sch 40 correctly instead.

Reply to
dpb

I learned _my_ lessong on changing from iron to PVC in the middle of January with a foot of snow on the ground. I had used a male iron-to- pvc female. That was out in the middle of a pasture and ovf course there were no shutoffs on the line anywhere. Future runs I made all _started_ with a shutoff and 'male irong-female PVC fittings were banned. :)

Harry K

Reply to
Harry K

I can get hard too!!!! (even without Viagra)....

Reply to
dimpled-butt

Your summary was fantastically well written and easy to follow! (much easier than the original article)

It's clear I should not be using Teflon tape.

But which of the non-lubricating "sealants" should I be using then?

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Reply to
Danny D

While I was in Home Depot, I had called the rectorseal.com 800 number, and asked what I should use in pool plumbing (800-231-3345).

The guy that answered for technical support didn't really sound all that knowledgeable, but, he must have known more than I.

He's the one who suggested the red tube you see in the photo.

However, after reading Vic Smith's article, I understand that I don't want something that lubricates.

I just want sealant.

So, I think *all* the solutions in that picture are wrong.

Reply to
Danny D

I called RectorSeal while I was at Home Depot and they said to use the red tube that I bought (and not the red jar, which was for metals).

The red tube says it's for "plastics", so that's what I used over the Teflon tape.

Now I understand, from Vic Smith's article, that Teflon tape is a no-no; and I understand that *lubrication* is a no no ... so it appears *all* the tubes of sealant I bought from Home Depot are wrong.

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I wonder if the local plumbing and irrigation supply places know this stuff?

Reply to
Danny D

Danny D:

No, the way I read that Lasco article, you should not be using EITHER pipe dope OR teflon tape on plastic pipe threads.

You should be using a thread sealant meant for plastic threads ONLY. The Lasco article really should come out and say that pipe dope is not the same thing as thread sealant meant for plastic threads. It dances around that point by saying that pipe dope hardens whereas thread sealant for plastic pipe threads doesn't, thereby allowing it to be pushed into leakage paths by the water pressure inside the pipe, thereby blocking that leakage path. It also says that pipe dope and teflon make the threads slippery, thereby reducing friction and causing overtightening, whereas a thread sealant meant for plastic threads won't do that.

Putting the thread sealant on the male threads, then wrapping them with teflon tape is just as bad as using teflon tape only. The thickness of the teflon tape you put on is going to increase the spreading force on the female fitting making it more likely to split.

From my reading of that Lasco article, you should apply thread sealant meant for plastic threads to your male plastic threads only, and then screw on the female plastic thread. Tighten to finger tight and then no more than two full turns after that.

If you've already used teflon tape on your threaded plastic joints, and there's no splitting or leaking, I would just leave them as is. But, in future, just use the red bottle that says it's meant for plastic and nothing else.

I think everyone in here understands the principle of tapered threads, and that the idea behind teflon tape or pipe dope is that these materials get compressed between the make and female threads to seal the joint against leakage. That Lasco article said that metal threads can gall at metal-to-metal contact points, and that the use of teflon tape or pipe dope helps to prevent that. In the case of a smooth plastic-to-plastic thread contact, there's no risk of galling so you don't need anything as thick as pipe dope or teflon tape to keep the metals separated until the joint is fully tightened. With plastic theads, all that's needed to seal the tightened joint is a fluid that's viscous enough not to be pushed out of the joint by the water pressure inside the pipe. I'm thinking that plastic fittings can be molded to much better tolerances than iron pipe can be machined (because the cutting tool wears down for one thing), so a fluid that's fairly thin may still be viscous enough to not be pushed out of a small enough crevice in a threaded joint. Or, at least, at the lower water pressures that plastic piping is suitable for. So, even if this thread sealant you bought for plastic piping seems to be too thin compared to pipe dope, I would still use it by itself, which is what Lasko is telling you to do.

Reply to
nestork

Likewise, look at the article on thread sealing tape:

"One of the defining characteristics of PTFE (Teflon) is how good it is at defeating friction. The use of PTFE tape in tapered pipe threads performs a lubricating function, which more easily allows the threads to be screwed together, to the point of deformation, which is what creates the seal."

Reply to
HeyBub

All I can tell you is that there are a hell of a lot of people using teflon tape and not having problems. I think the Lasco article makes sense and a thread sealant is probably better. But in the grand scheme of things, I'm not sure it makes a huge difference. To get the high pressure to crack a fitting, you'd probably have to over tighten the fitting. If you know what you're doing, that isn't likely to happen.

Here's a source that says sealant is preferred, but if you have to, you can use tape:

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Reply to
trader4

Actually, I put the Teflon tape on first ... and then put the gooey stuff on. Now I know that both of those solutions was dead wrong!

In fact, it's extremely hard, it seems, to find the "right stuff" at the home box stores that meets the three requirements: a) PVC b) Non lubricating c) Sealant

Here is a large-format photo of the tubes of wrong "stuff" I bought:

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  • Harvey's TFE Paste, Part No. 023015 * Front: White slow setting superior quality pipe thread compound * Rear: Non-hardening, withstands up to 3,000 psi (gases) at temperatures from -50F to +400F and 10,000 psi (liquids) from -50F to +400F. Use on water, steam, natural, & LP gas, oils, fuels, & dilute acids. Apply to clean male pipe threads on metals, PVC, CPVC, ABS, polypropylene, and nylon. Lubricates as it seals; will not harm seals of valves or faucets.
  • Rectorseal Tplus2 Pipe Thread Sealant, Product Code No. 23710 * Front: Seals and lubricates threaded connections on metal & plastics. Formulated for potable water, natural gas and a wide variety of fluids and gases. Teeny tiny print: Meets CSA requirements working temperature range

-40F to 125F. Maximum working pressure 125 psi. For use with natural gas and LP (vapor state only). Use on steel, galvanized steel, iron, brass, copper, & aluminum. For pipe size up to & including 1 1/4".

Reply to
Danny D

Bingo! +2 T plus 2 is the goop to use.

Reply to
DD_BobK

I don't disagree - and - I'm a big believer in doing it any way you want - BUT - only after knowing the right way to do it - and not out of sheer ignorance (which was what I was doing).

Since this is alt.home.repair, I agree we should at least discuss and know HOW to do it right.

At this point, we know that the correct way to do it is not with Teflon tape, and certainly not with BOTH tape & sealant.

Also we know that the right way is to use a * non-lubricating * sealant, which is actually hard to find at the big box stores.

This confirms a few things in the Vic Smith article.

- Teflon tape is deprecated

- Teflon tape is a lubricant

- Never use both Teflon tape and sealant paste

- Tighten 2 to 3 turns past finger tight

It looks like huckleberries are in season, as the "right stuff" is the "Blue 75 thread sealant". I'll see if Home Depot has the stuff in stock.

Reply to
Danny D

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