Plumbing inspector nightmare

[Sasha]

As part of remodeling my kitchen I had to redo plumbing on the second floor bathroom that is just above the kitchen. I was pretty confident in my plumbing skills and knowledge as I did a bug plumbing project in my house before. I plumbed full basement bath including underslab plumbing, installed sewage ejector pump, stand pipe, utility sink. All work was inspected multiple times and except few issues that I had to correct everything was fine. Now a new inspector in my township came to check my new kitchen and upstairs plumbing. He rejected my work due to several problems to his view:

1. He said my house must have 1 3" vent and two 2" vents. I thought that vent size is determined by number of fixture units it vents. I have two 2" vents and that is more then adequate for my house with 2

1/2 bath. Can someone point me to the place in NPC where it states that house must have these number of vents.

1. He insisted toilet must have a wet vent instead of dry went that I put. Why does toilet must have wet vent and why dry vent is no good?

2. He insisted that rubber Fernco couplings that I used to connect new PVC DWV with old copper plumbing are prohibited despite I used them in my basement and previous inspector approved them .I also cannot understand if Fernco couplings are prohibited why any HD sells them?

[BP]

You don't say where you are at. The local code can be different than the national code. In my state (MA) a homeowner can't do his own plumbing.

I can't recite chapter and verse and I don't have a NPC book (builder not a plumber), but I can tell you what I think I know: The inspector has the authority to interpret the code as he sees fit. What the old inspector allowed is irrelevant. There is a new sheriff in town. When you change one thing it opens you up to changing everything to meet the code currently in force. Every house must have one 3" vent through the roof. Toilets are always vented down stream. You don't vent on the upstream side.

You should check to see if there is a NPC on the net. We'll see if any plumbers come along and can recite chapter and verse. Have you thought about talking with a pro?

[tbasc]

What BP says about inspectors and interpretation of code is true in my experience. Codes change. Inspectors change. Interpretations change. Resitance is futile. TB

[RicodJour]

Calling an inspector on some of his decisions can cause problems, make him lose face and create an enemy which would affect any future projects. You're the only one that can determine if fighting city hall, and still potentially losing the battle, makes sense.

Inspectors have agendas, same as anyone else. He might be of the opinion that it is his duty to take any opportunity to bring the house closer to being in complaince with the current code. You didn't mention when exactly you did that basement project, but the new International Residential Code came out only a couple years ago. Your township may have adopted it, adopted it with modifications or come up with one of their own.

Some inspectors hate dealing with homeowners. They feel it's not their job to teach plumbing/construction to someone who, in their opinion, knows nothing and is a pain in the ass. If you're run into one of those, lotsa luck!

If the guy seems reasonably willing to discuss things, but isn't budging on his requirements, ask him to point out where exactly in the code that it prohibits certain things (such as Fernco couplings). Be aware that if you live in a smaller town, your plumbing inspector may be the final authority - there may be no one to overrule him. Even if there is, his boss may be unwilling to do so if it's minor stuff and no one is "harmed". Your concerns are not for life and limb, just some added expense for you.

Look at the bigger picture before you go making an enemy.

R

[kzinNOSPAM99]

I built a deck at my old house. Replaced this awful concrete patio and iron railing (complete w/hardware cloth at the top...) that ran right up to about

1 inch from the property line. Setback in Montgomery County was, not remembering exactly now, 18 inches I think. Doesn't matter exactly. I accounted for this in the design of the deck but neglected the 3/4 inch redwood skirting. Thus I was about 1/2 inch in violation of code.

Inspector called me on it. I was polite and asked for suggestions as to what to do as I felt it was a bit unreasonable to require me to tear down the deck for 1/2 inch, especially when it was so much closer to compliance than what was replaced. He didn't really have any suggestions as there weren't any to be made, except for perhaps lose the skirting. The neighbor certainly didn't care about the 1/2 inch and was delighted that the old gulag had been torn down and replaced with a nice deck.

There was an awkward silence for a bit and I got the impression he was waiting for something. Then he said, ok, fine I'll pass it.

I asked a few folks later, 2 who worked for the county attorney's office, and one who was a contractor and they were all of the opinion that what that guy was waiting for in that pause was an offer of a bribe. I have no evidence that's what he wanted, just the 3 opinions.

Not sure what my point is w/regard to the original post just agreeing w/RicodJour that inspectors can have all sorts of agendas.

ml

[Ignoramus9053]

I never gave a bribe to any official, not even when I lived in Russia, mostly because there was not a chance/need to do it.

I am curious though, how often, practically speaking, are bribes given/offered here. If I offer a bribe to a low level official, or a cop, can I go to prison for it, in reality?

i

[G Henslee]

WFC's?

According to the latest statistics, every 2.6 seconds there's a bribe taken by a low level official in this country. It's called taxes you moron.

You should go to prison for stupidity, but unlike your mutha' country some here in this one take pity on dummies. That's called social services.

[Rusty]

Sounds like a police state. I think I'm pleased to live in the UK where you can do just about anything with your own plumbing. Apart from underground stuff that is.

[Phil Scott]

the second

confident

project in

underslab

sink. All

I had to

township came to

work due to

thought

vents. I

house with 2

states that

went that I

no good?

connect new

used them in

cannot

sells them?

Thats why about half the residential remodel woik gets done sans permit...that is the home owner opts to just hope the city's roving inspectors dont have x-ray eyes to look through the walls and see that (gasp)...you are doing some work.

>

[Phil Scott]

isn't

exactly in the

couplings). Be

inspector may

him. Even if

just some

concrete patio and iron

right up to about

was, not

exactly. I

the 3/4 inch

code.

suggestions as to

to tear down

to compliance

suggestions as there

skirting. The neighbor

that the old

impression he was

attorney's office,

opinion that what that

I have no

agreeing

In San Francisco Calif..unless the headlines were all bogus... the city building dept was one huge bribery operation... gasp... that couldnt possibly be true however...these were civil 'servants' all set to retire at around age 55 with city funded pensions worth 3 to 5 million dollars each..

Phil Scott

[G Henslee]

Which headlines were those?

[Phil Scott]

attorney's office,

opinion that what that

I have no

in Russia,

bribes

official, or a

I am extensively familar with the problem...its very very common in the US particularly with state or federally funded jobs..

In some industries in SF I have been asked to quote a $17,000 job (gross profit $3,000) at $40,000 then kick back 20k to the manager in charge of the business.

Usually graft demand is for 10 to 20% of the total sale.

here is the results of a google search on the issue:

9,700 hits

When some states stopped graft and kickbacks in their states highway construction programs costs typically dropped 50%.. that gives you a clue on how pervasive the problem is.

Its illegal in the US... but the money is too much for many in management positions to resist.

in other countries its not illegal and businesses there can write off the cost of paying bribes.

go see the movie "the corporation" you will find that both funny, terrifying and informative.

Phil Scott

[Pat]

Every house must have one 3 inch vent. Toilets must have a 2 inch vent minimum. Just do what he wants and be done with it. If you are unable to figure out what he wants get a little help from a real plumber.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Yes, there are laws against it.

Some inspectors will accept a "tip" though. In a large city where I used to live, my step father was a contractor. He always abided by the codes, but he always left an envelope someplace in plain view. He'd step out of the room and the envelope would disappear.

[Sasha]

I forgot to mention the most amazing part of the story. The first time plumbing inspector came for the inspection he just said: "Rejected" very briefly mentioning what's rejected. When I asked him to to explain what's wrong and how he wants things to be done. He completely refused to talk to me saying they are not allowed to explain anything. I then went to township and talked to the second plumbing inspector who unfortunately happened to be subordinate of the first one. I ordered reinspection and next time they both came to my house. The story repeated again, they refused to explain to me anything at first. I then told them. Imagine a situation that you are stopped by a police officer and the officer just tell you: "you are fined $500". When you ask him what the fine for the officer replies: "I am not allowed to tell you anything". How would you feel? Finally after 30 minutes of tense discussion the boos inspector within 20 seconds explain to me how he wants me to fix issues. I spent two days doing this and today finally I got approval. I don't blame the inspector, I blame the rules. We are going to celebrate 4th of July, praising our liberties which are without doubt invaluable. Someone from UK responded to my original posting saying that in UK they can do anything in their own home. I just wonder whether the US is really that free country as it states when people there cannot do in their own homes what they want?

[Ignoramus9053]

How big were those tips?

i

[Nick Hull]

When I was a child it was customary to tie a $20 bill to a trap if you wanted to pass inspection.

[Ron]

I was remodeling a home in Oakland, Ca and all the inspectors were very helpful us. The plumbing inspector even came out to the house to show us how he wanted us to run a waste line and connect to the sewer. The electrical inspector was also helpful. We ran a new service and the weather head wasn't high enough for city code, but it complied with the NEC. He asked if we were given the city electrical code, we had not. He approved us and said, "For future reference boy, it needs to be higher." I think Oakland wanted to encourage home owners to maintain their property. Ron

[Nick Hull]

I put in all my own plumbing and never had it inspected. Didn't get a building permit for my house either.

[FDR]

Around here electrical may be done by anyone but must be inspected for compliance. The inspector is a nice guy and helpful. As for plumbing, it's required that a licensed plumber do the plumbing, however a homeowner may do the work and the inspectors are willing to help the owner understand whay has to be done. As for the OP saying that he did things one way last year and it wasn't allowed this year; well that is most likely because the rules changed. I know we had one inspector come in and cite the plumber for three things wrong, but then the inspectors supervisor came in and said things were ok since the rules had changed from the previous year.