I've seen these boiler reset controls to sense outdoor temperature to compensate for the water temperature flowing through hydronic radiators. Just curious do they make anything for a 1 zone steam boiler?
This is for a 6 family apt building in NYC. I'm wondering if they make an outdoor temperature sensor that can prevent the boiler from coming on if it's warm enough outside. Current rules in NYC are:
From 6AM-10PM, indoor temp must be 68deg if outside temp is below 55.
From 10PM-6AM indoor temp must be 55deg if outside temp is below 40.
So I would need something similar to a programmable T-Stat for the different times and temperatures. I'm wondering if its possible to wire 2 T-stats in series?
Or will this cause more problems? Ideally, I'd like to have a Wi-Fi indoor T-stat , but there is no Wi-Fi in the bldg ( not even with tenants), and the wiring from indoor T-stat on 2nd floor hallway to boiler is insufficient ( only 2 wires).
Indoor/Outdoor reset controls are available for both hydronic and steam
But I think you're missing one important point. Apartment blocks are
built different than houses. Houses have lumber exterior and interior
walls that have very little thermal mass, so the furnace or boiler can
raise and lower the temperature of the house relatively quickly.
Typically, apartment blocks will have to abide by a different
construction code and will have concrete block exterior walls with a
brick veneer to make them look attractive as well as concrete block
walls around each apartment to act as a fire barrier to prevent fire
from spreading laterally.
It's the thermal inertia of your concrete block walls that would prevent
any boiler or boiler control from being able to follow those 24 hour
temperature guidelines you quoted. You can put in an indoor/outdoor
reset control, but it certainly wouldn't be able to modulate the
temperature in your building on a 24 hour basis like that. So, in that
regard, you'd probably be best off to install an indoor/outdoor reset
control, set it to provide a comfortable temperature inside your
building and leave it at that. Trying to change the termpature of all
that concrete every 12 hours or so is simply not going to happen. Your
boiler control may be set to do that, but the thermal inertia of your
concrete block and brick walls is going to be a monkey wrench in the
machinery of it all, and will prevent your plan from actually working as
Tekmar is a well respected name in hydronic (and I suspect steam)
heating boiler controls. They are owned by the Watts company which I
believe is headquartered in the USA.
Really??? How about the hundreds of thousands of homes built from other
materials? Stone, block, ICFs SIPS. brick. adobe, concrete, etc.
Why? It only matters getting the temperature up at the required time,
lag to the lower is not a problem, not does it have to go that low. You
will have to anticipate the time for increase and the boiler will have
to come on before the required time to reach the daily minimum for
You can put in an indoor/outdoor
It does not have to reach the 55 degree at night, that is a minimum. He
can set it to whatever works and makes sense. I'd think that 62 or 64
minimum would be better in many respects. Happy tenants and easier to
maintain the swings.
On Sunday, September 28, 2014 11:59:13 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
I was waiting for someone to bring up the ridiculous 55 temp. That might
be acceptable on an emergency basis, for a few days. But you'd have to be
a slum lord to deliberately target 55F as an acceptable temp, just because
the govt says it's as low as you can go and still not get fined, etc.
From a practical standpoint, if you have it at 68F at 10PM, for typical
building, it's not going to get to 55F, unless it's some place exceptionally
cold or purely insulated, etc.
And I think Mike is conflating two different things. One is just setting
back the temp at night. I guess you could screw with it more, basing it
on outside temps, if you're really going to go to those guidelines. But IDK
anyone that wants to live that way and I wouldn't do it to tenants . I'd
have a min temp for day and a min setback temp at night that didn't depend on
the outside temp. So, all you need is a setback thermostat that is secure
and tenants can't screw with. How you do that, IDK. Plenty of tenants have
enough smarts to figure out how to bypass stuff.
The main purpose of the outdoor temp reset, AFAIK, is to moderate the temps
that the boiler runs at. At least that's how it works with hot water. If
it's 45F out, you don't need to run the boiler water as hot as you do if it's
10F out. That lets the boiler run a little more efficient. AFAIK, you can
still set the individual thermostats to whatever you want. Also, IDK how
this concept works with steam, because you do need to make steam, not just
heat water. But apparently the reset controls do exist for steam.
> compensate for the water temperature flowing through hydronic
No the reset control doesn't compensate for the water temperature in the
heating system; it lowers the set temperature of the heating system when
it's warm outside and raises it when it's cold outside.
Also, I'm not sure there's such a thing as a indoor/outdoor reset
control for STEAM heating systems because I'm not sure that steam
boilers are set up to produce varying temperature steam the way hydronic
boilers are set up to produce varying temperature water. Any steam
boiler manufacturer could answer that. Maybe contact Weil McLain in
that regard. They make hydronic boilers, but I don't know if they make
Ed Pawlowski;3289628 Wrote:
Ed: The heavier the construction materials used to build the home, the
greater the thermal inertia. If you have concrete block walls in your
house, you'll have the same situation as an apartment block where it
takes a much longer time for the building to warm up or cool down
because of the thermal mass of the walls. That's just a matter of
physics and thermodynamics. The heavier the mass, the more heat it
stores and the greater it's thermal inertia.
No. You're suggesting that he can program his timed thermostat to come
one earlier and shut off earlier to account for the thermal mass of the
walls. You could do that if it was just a few hours that the walls
remained warm or cool, but we're talking days. How can you program a 24
hour thermostat to come on and go off several days in advance?
What I'm saying is that it makes no sense to have daily swings in
temperature when the thermal mass of the walls is an important factor in
the heating of the property for more than 24 hours. He'd be better off
to just set the reset temperature control at a comfortable level and
leave it that way 24/7 from October to March. That's the way most hot
water heating systems with indoor/outdoor reset controls are operated.
On Sunday, September 28, 2014 1:42:26 PM UTC-4, nestork wrote:
I guess it depends on what he meant by compensating. An outdoor temp
reset systems does change the temp of the water flowing in the system
based on outdoor temp. I'd call that compensating.
I wondered the same thing. I provided a link to a company that is
selling them. Exactly how they work, IDK. It apparently applies some
of the same principles to a steam system.
Just because there is more thermal mass doesn't mean that the same
principles don't still apply. If you setback the temp in building A
from 70F to 60F at night and it gets down to 60F at some point, before
having to rise again you save money. And if in building B you do the
same thing, but because of more thermal mass, it only gets down to 65F,
you still save money, just not as much.
Correct, but you stated houses were built of wood. Some are, some are not.
To maintain a day/night he can easily do only that with a thermostat.
The only additional thing he needs is a thermal switch so that if the
outside temperature is above some pre-set number, the boiler does not
start. There are controls available depending on how sophisticated you
want to get.
There are Honeywell thermostats that actually learn how long it takes to
get up to temperature and adjust the start time accordingly. It does not
have to adjust for thermal mass to cool down as it does not matter how
long it takes, He even has the option of keeping 68 all the time if he
That is probably correct. With the thermal mass he is unlikely to get
down to the 55 minimum, but if it stays mid 60 he will have happier
tenants and at reasonable cost..
All I'm saying is that if the OP would be largely wasting his money on a
programmable indoor/outdoor reset controller if his building is concrete
block construction. The heating system simply cannot change the
temperature of all that concrete by 10 degrees F every 24 hours, and
(provided tenants leave their windows closed) the concrete won't cool
down by 10 degrees F within 24 hours. What the OP wants to do is
analagous to measuring with a micrometer, marking with a piece of chaulk
and cutting with an axe. If he has concrete block walls, the thermal
inertia of the walls is going to obliterate any programming he does
True, but who cares. The only thing critical is maintaining 68 as a
minimum during the day and whatever it drifts down to at night as long
as it does not go below 55.
What the OP wants to do is
Maybe the OP will chime in here, but I think he just wants to abide by
the law and maybe save a few bucks on fuel. I think you are overly
concerned about thermal mass that is going to work in his favor.
I don't know more about the hydrolic boiler but you can adjust
temperature in steam heating boilers buy using sensor. May there are
some functions in hydrolic boiler also but i don't have more information
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