Yoose obviously don't bathe daily. I'm convinced yoose have no idea
how much hot water yoose use... most people haven't a clue about their
hot water use. There's really no way to compare until one installs a
tankless on demand water heater because everyone's hot water usage
differs. I already know I save a $1,000 a year... when still working
people have no idea how much hot water they use at work... I know I
used a good amount in hot water and actual water. Most use their
companie's facilities a lot more than they are willing to admit.
Your numbers are impossible.
Heating the water you use costs the same with both tank and tankless.
It takes 1 BTU to raise1 lb of water 1 degree F - that is a law that
cannot be broken. gallon (US ) of water weighe 8.34 lbs, do it tales
8.23 BTU to raise a gallon 1 degree.. With comfortable shower temp of
105, and average inlet temp of 51, you need to raise the temperature
by 50 degrees - so 417 BTU per gallon, and a minimum of 3.5 gallons
for a shower = 14595 BTU for a short high-efficiency shower.
Most energy efficiency sites estimate standby heat loss for natural
gas water heaters in the $110 per year range - and that is counting
ALL of the "lost heat" as a total loss - ie - heater not within
conditioned space. With the water heater in my occupied basement my
actual "lost heat" is less than half that
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 8:33:28 AM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Not necessarily true. The efficiencies while running can be different.
I would think that the efficiency of the best tankless is going to be
better than the efficiency of the worst tank type. It's just that
from what I see, it's not enough difference to make it worthwhile
Only if you make the faulty assumption that 100% of the heat energy
of the gas goes into the water.
gallon (US ) of water weighe 8.34 lbs, do it tales
My under $20 total gas bill in summer is consistent with that.
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 11:33:33 PM UTC-4, Brooklyn1 wrote:
You're right. IDK how many gallons of hot water I use. But I do
know that my gas bill is under $20 a month in summer. Others here
have reported similar.
There's really no way to compare until one installs a
To compare, I agree. But given that my gas bill is under $20 a month
in summer, when it's just the water heater and some outdoor grilling,
I know I can't save $1000 a year, it's mathematically impossible,
because my whole gas bill for the WH is less than $240.
when still working
So what? It's not necessary to know how much water we use. My less
than $20 gas bill tells me all that I need to know. Pretty dumb point
anyway, with a few exceptions, most people use very little hot water at
work. For example, I've never taken a shower at work, run my dishwasher
or clothes washer there, etc. Just used it to wash my hands, that's it.
It would help if you gave us some actual numbers, like the breakdown
on your gas bill, how much per therm you're paying, etc.
Your numbers are nothing like mine. People who still work are not
home all day so use little hot water at home. When I worked I'd often
shower, shave, and brush my teeth at work plus with my dirty work I'd
wash my hands countless times a day... we had very well appointed
locker rooms with terriffic high pressure showers and lots of flufy
towels. If you're heating your home with gas and have such low bills
you must live in the south and/or live in a shoebox with the
thermostat set at 60ºF and your price for gas must be dirt cheap, and
you must be using natural gas which costs a lot less than propane. You
probably shower once a week and it's a navy water hours shower; wet
quickly with cold, turn water off, soap up, and a quick cold rinse...
you use no more than 1 gallon of water total.
In any case the Rinnai web site claims up to a 40% energy saving which
I think is conservative.
"Designed for efficiency: Rinnais tankless technology features copper
heat exchangers to provide maximum efficiency and uses up to 40
percent less energy* than a traditional tank.
Save energy: By operating only when hot water is needed, and no
storage tank to heat and reheat water, our tankless technology helps
save on energy and utility costs. The use of an electronic ignition
means no standing pilot light that constantly uses energy.
Replace parts, not systems: Every part of a Rinnai Tankless Water
Heater is replaceable. Components can be easily exchanged, if needed,
versus replacing the entire system."
Many people are using tankless on demand because the savings are
substantial. My propane company says it's used in all new
construction and so many people are changing over they had to hire
more people to satisfy demand. When I changed over my tank type water
heater was working fine only I tired of large propane bills. I also
added the ventless gas heater and run it along with my furnace, it
cuts my propane use even further because no heat is lost up a chimney,
they are 99% efficient... with the ventless I'm able to turn my
furnace on a month later in the fall and turn it off a month sooner in
spring, so the ventless turned out to be a great investment... I
originally bought it so I'd have heat in case of a power outage in
winter, but now I leave it on all winter with it's thermostate set
low, by keeping my basement warm it keeps my furnace from firing up as
often, and naturally a warm basement heats the entire house too, in
winter I leave the basement door open and open a floor vent at the
other end of the house. The floor vent was already there because the
last people heated with wood, their water jacketed wood stove is still
in the basement but no longer hooked up to water or electric
circulators for the baseboard heating and it made domestic hot water
during winter, in warm weather there was an electric tank water
heater, actually two, one was for extra starage from the furnace...
they really had the oil fired furnace in case the wood fire went out.
It's a very good commercial quality furnace but when the tankless on
demand unit was installed I had the plumber remove all the rube
goldberg crap, so now it just heats the house in winter but it's
turned off during warm weather... when I moved here I had the propane
company remove the oil burner and convert the furnace to propane,
works very well, and no oil stink or tuneups/cleanings. I would never
go back to filthy oil. I've met many of my neighbors who won't use
their AC because it would eat into their restaurant and wine budget...
they'd rather sleep in their basement during summer than give up
eating out 3-4 times a week and guzzle $40 bottles of wine. People
who rationalize all kinds of harebrained excuses to convince
themselves not to replace their kaput tank type water heater with a
tankless on demand water heater are really just crying the sour grapes
opera... has not a whit to do with their budget, it simply hasn't more
priority than dining out, guzzling pricey wine, or some such
ostentatious spectacle they can flaunt. Maybe I can flaunt my Rinnai
by finding some buxom 18 year old gal to shower with. hehe
On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 1:25:45 PM UTC-4, Brooklyn1 wrote:
Just because you're home, you use significant hot water all day long?
My house there is high usage AM, then usage at night again. Usage
during the day of any significance would typically be clothes washing,
dishwashing, etc, ie usage that's going to occur anyway, whether its
day or night. I don't think most people take extra showers just
because they are home during the day.
Hard to imagine hand washing can use much hot water.
. we had very well appointed
That would be the first time a manufacturer used conservative numbers
when trying to sell something. Assuming that 40% is true, my bill is
under $20. So, I'd save $8 a month. What's the payback time?
Here's what Consumer Reports says:
"Gas tankless water heaters, which use high-powered burners to quickly heat
water as it runs through a heat exchanger, were 22 percent more energy eff
icient on average than the gas-fired storage-tank models in our tests. That
translates into a savings of around $70 to $80 per year, based on 2008 nat
ional energy costs."
Note the savings of $70 to $80 per year, not per month. That number
makes sense to me.
How about this, where an actual study of homes using both was made:
"The researchers concluded that most tankless water heaters will fall apart
from old age before they save enough energy to justify their high cost"
They found that best case the payback for a tankless was 21 years,
worst case it was 71 years.
Per the above math, it's not going to happen when my tank type is $20
My propane company says it's used in all new
For the first time you've used the word PROPANE. The OP clearly stated
that hers was natural gas. Which gets back to my request for more
information. You just say you're saving $80 a month, nothing else.
Now we find out you have propane, she has natural gas. Might want
to re-think the comment that it's a no brainer to switch to tankless.
When I changed over my tank type water
Not sure that you're saving much by burning gas in one appliance
instead of another. If you can use the ventless to only heat part
of the house, I can see that saving money.
but now I leave it on all winter with it's thermostate set
Not sure what's going on there, but if you're saying you heat an
unused basement to warm the upstairs, I think that's a losing
proposition for sure.
My bill is $20 a month with a tank type. Do the math. And supply
us with some real numbers, eg what your gas usage is, what the cost
per therm is, what that tankless cost to install.
Cute Sheldon and I have natural gas, live in Virginia Beach (much
warmer than you) and use ancillary wood in winter. House kept to 72 in
My prices are flat out less than yours so deal with it. You chose to
live where you do and it's prices as well as propane vs natural gas.
You are well known for exxagurration.. (did I spread that out enough?)
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 3:01:16 PM UTC-4, Brooklyn1 wrote:
I don't believe it. Not for a residential water heater for a typical
family in most of the USA where nat gas is relatively cheap. My gas
bill in winter is ~$100 a month, for a 3200 sq ft house. That includes
gas heat and hot water. In the summer, the gas bill is under $20.
So, I'm having a hard time imagining how a bill could got down by $80,
unless you're running a Laundromat.
Don't be a penny-wise
Yeah, what a drain. Like I said, the bill here is under $20 a
month for hot water used as well as the standby losses. So, those
standby losses, which are the main difference between a tank type
and tankless, can't be that great.
Now look at the cost difference of just replacing that tank heater
she has, versus installing a tankless. She's going to get quotes,
just for education, I suggest she get quotes for tankless too.
Besides the substantially higher cost of the unit, it typically
requires new gas piping all the way back to the meter, because
of it's high usage. Then you need to run venting to the outside too.
Can it make sense? Sure if you have unique requirements, eg you
can have very high water needs for a beach house or similar.
Does it make sense for the average homeowner? I doubt it.
PS: Weren't you the person who told us gas water heaters can't
work without AC? Tell that to mine.
Would not pass inspection here in Waterloo Ontario. Not even if it
was a GFCI (required within 6 feet of water. Many places would not
allow that crappy stainless steel flex gas line either. - and if they
did it would HAVE to be yellow-jacket.
On Sat, 04 Jun 2016 21:41:12 -0400, email@example.com wrote:
After posting I also noticed the mains power cable isn't in conduit,
that definitely would not pass here in Australia. Probably same for
the gas lines too, as you mentioned. But I've seen much worse examples
around these parts.
Thanks, Sheldon. Yeah, it's a no brainer if there's a no-limit budget!
Of course I'd love to have an on-demand, tankless hot water system, but
my wallet dictates otherwise! Oh well, perhaps I might win the lottery
tonight - vbg :)
===============================Kitchen Rule #1 - Use the timer!
Kitchen Rule #2 - Cook's choice!
That they do, as evidenced by my ancient, 30-plus year-old hot water
heater since it lasted so long before it recently failed. As already
mentioned, I've anticipated its incipient failure, so it's no surprise.
However, I am caught rather unawares - oh well ;> Such is Life, eh!
I am a firm believer that forearmed with knowledge is a good thing! I'd
rather not be taken advantage because some 'sales' person believes I'm
an easy mark due to gender!
===============================Kitchen Rule #1 - Use the timer!
Kitchen Rule #2 - Cook's choice!
On Sunday, June 5, 2016 at 3:19:14 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
How much did they go down? You sure it's apples to apples? If you have
gas heat, put it in in February, the gas bill will go right down to.
IDK what the cost of gas is over there, but here in the USA it's fairly
cheap. My whole gas bill in summer is under $20 a month. So, it's hard
for me to see where all this savings is coming from.
I DIDN'T SAY MORE GAS.
It uses about the same amount of gas, but all at once more BTUs for a
shorter time- so higher flow. If the tank is inside the house (in
conditioned space) the meat loss is minimal - and in the winter just
reduces the load on the heating system.
One friend of mine relates how when he was working
at a religious radio station, a youthful DJ put on
a song from the Singing Telestials. My friend the
broadcast engineer nearly died laughing when the
DJ announced to the world he was about to play the
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
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