An engine without a block drain does not need one: the engineers will have
designed the block to drain through the radiator. This is why I said "if
applicable" in my original reply. But the fact that the OP was only able to
re-install about half the reported capacity /strongly/ suggests that he has
left a lot of old coolant in the block.
If the OP's engine has a block drain (or two), then it is NOT sufficient to
simply "flush" the block by attempting to run the engine with plain water
through it, and it is an extremely BAD idea to run the engine with plain
water as the coolant. Running an engine with plain water can damage the
The correct approach is, with the engine *COLD* and *NOT RUNNING*, to drain
the rad AND block. With the drains open, run plain water through the block
and rad until the water runs clear, let it drain again, close the drains,
then re-fill using the correct procedure as per the factory instructions.
ALL modern engines have coolant-replacement intervals. ALL of them.
I am unaware of ANY automotive engine sold into the North American market
without a recovery bottle since about the late '70s. Maybe even before then
The coolant degradation I'm talking about has nothing to do with oxygen
(although oxidation can be an issue), but instead has to do with preventing
boiling at the fire rings. Each time the coolant is brought to "nucleate
boiling" (DAGS), a little of the additives are consumed. Eventually
consumption reaches the point where replacement of the coolant is necessary
or additives must be replenished.
Ray Bohacz covered this very issue in a recent issue of Hemmings Classic
Car. Last couple of months. You could look it up.
Yup, and so do the oldies.
I'd go so far as to say that every automotive fluid has a replacement
interval, but sometimes the manufacturer's idea of what the lifetime of
the vehicle is is shorter than you plan on keeping it. (think about
that for a second, it actually makes sense.)
Some of us have cars built before then :)
Don't doubt that... I remember reading his columns in the sister mag,
forget what it was called, Muscle Machines maybe? Had a subscription
for a while but let it lapse, not for any good reason, just didn't have
time to keep up with the scene anymore. He seemed like he had a pretty
good handle on things.
My only point was, today we're accustomed to multi-year coolant
replacement intervals. The old 50's and 60's stuff was designed to have
the coolant replaced every year; if you don't want to do that, I would
retrofit a 2-way rad cap and a bottle.
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 23:37:16 -0400, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Here's good info - easy to see.
Might surprise some the pure anti-freeze freezes at 8F.
50/50 is a good mix up north. -40F protection.
It's a bit overkill for most places, but an easy 1:1 mix to do.
The additives degrade, so a less mix would require changing more
Many people might remember the "old days" when running almost pure
water was common until wintertime
You would lose coolant all summer from the rad cap popping, or maybe a
Just fill it with water until winter approached, then drain the rad
and add a gallon or two of anti-freeze. If you dally and a cold snap
catches you, you could be hurting. Lost a radiator that way.
Also had to pour hot water on a number of other peoples' radiators
that froze up in cold snaps.
Used to be that way with washer fluid too. People would put fluid
without anti-freeze in the tank, and it would still be there when
winter rolled around. No spray,
Best to use washer fluid with anti-freeze and only add 50/50 to the
radiator all year round.
Doesn't matter anyway. It's asking for trouble. Leave it sealed up,
and pull the lower rad hose. You should inspect those hoses anyway,
and replace them if there's any doubt about their condition.
Same with a rad petcock. Don't even touch it. Most now are cheap
plastic and it's a good chance you'll need a new one as soon as you
open it. And for what, a tiny dribble of water if you're lucky?
Takes all day.
Always flush with clean water. I don't use hose connectors.
Just drain it by pulling the lower hose, and refill with water.
Run it for a few minutes after the thermostat opens up.
Wait half an hour for cool down, then repeat the process.
After emptying it the second time, you'll see it's clean water coming
out. No worry about even a gallon left in the block.
Close it up and pour in half the system capacity with 100%
anti-freeze. Top off with water. Done.
Do not run the engine when flushing. All engines should be flushed when the
block and rad are cool to the touch.
Actually, it's not. Not in the way that automotive engines need it to be.
Go read Ray Bohacz's article. The article is in Hemming's Classic Car from
the last couple of months. You won't do this, of course.
Go read Ray Bohacz's article before you accuse me of subscribing to a "myth".
The article is in Hemming's Classic Car from the last couple of months. You
won't do this, of course.
You appear to be thinking that I said that all engines have block drains. I
Read my post above: I said all blocks COULD BE DRAINED. The method of drain
is up to the manufacturer.
EVERY vehicle on your list has a way to drain the block (even if
EVERY vehicle on your list has a coolant change interval. As I asserted all
And if you are flushing the motor and running it at the same time it
will never GET any more than barely warm to the touch.
I didn't say it was a better coolant all-round - just better at
removing heat. Learn to READ. I have been a mechanic since the
sixties, and have taught both high school and trade level auto
mechanics - I DO know what I'm talking about.
I didn't say there was not a specified change interval and you DID
say all engines have block drains - and the only way tototally drain
SOME of the engines I listed is to remove the engine os stand the
vehicle on end. - or remove the engine mounts, or other similar very
Actually, it's not. Not in the way that automotive engines need it to be.
Go read Ray Bohacz's article.
I'll partially summarize what I remember from Bohacz's article: Plain water
has too much surface tension. High surface tension means that the boundary
layer is too tenacious, and tends to change phase (boil) before it can be
stripped away to be replaced by cooler water. Once the water changes phase,
heat transfer essentially stops, and localized overheating begins.
Go read Ray Bohacz's article.
If you're truly the teacher that you claim to have been, then you will be
intrigued that there might be information out there that you may not know.
I did not say that. On Wednesday the 28th I said that if the engine did not
have a block drain that it was meant to drain through the rad. Which was
incorrect, of course: some engines require that you pull the lower rad hose
for a block drain.
Or just pull the lower rad hose, which is what I discovered when I looked
up all the engines you mentioned.
On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 17:54:18 -0400, email@example.com wrote:
I would read Ray's article if I had a Hemmings Subscription. By the
way, it's in the August 2013 issue - which I do not have, as I am not
Water Wetter" is designed to reduce hot spots in your cylinder head.
It does this by reducing the build-up of water vapor in any
superheated areas. The bad thing about having hot spots in your
cylinder head (read combustion chamber) is that they can promote
pre-ignition - definitely a bad thing. This harks back to Smokey
Yunick's theory of "soft combustion chambers". Any sharp edges in
your combustion chamber (around valve seats for example) may tend to
get very hot (even red hot) during operation. These areas of the
combustion chamber can then form local hot spots in the cooling
passages. Thus, even though your bulk coolant temperature is well
below its boiling point (i.e. your gauge reads just fine), there may
be localized boiling in some regions of the coolant tract.
This localized boiling can cause a layer of water vapor to form over
the hot spot. This vapor forms an insulative blanket and prevents
heat from leaving this area, thus making the hot spot even worse. But
reducing the surface tension of the water makes it easier for vapor
bubbles to leave the surface of the cylinder head and allows the
bubbles to convect heat away from the area. Something that changes
the surface tension of a liquid is called a "surfactant". It does not
take very much surfactant to significantly change the surface tension
of water. Hence, you do not need to add very much "Water Wetter" in
order for it to do its job.
An additional benefit of using "Water Wetter" (in conjunction with
100% water) in you cooling system is that water has an extremely high
heat capacity. Thus a gallon of 100% water can carry more heat away
from you engine than an equivalent gallon of 50/50 water and coolant.
Water also has a high thermal conductivity which increases the
convection of heat away from the coolant passage walls and into the
free stream of the liquid flowing through the passages.
And are you also aware that "vapour phase" cooling is more efficient
than liquid cooling?? It takes a LOT more heat to cause a liquid to
boil than it does to raise the temperature of the liquid. Water's
latent heat of vapourization is just over 970 BTU per lb. That means
it takes about 5 times as much heat to boil a pound of water as it
does to heat water from freezing to boiling. So vapourizing that bit
of water does more to cool the hotspot than heating the water would -
as long as 212F is not a critical temperature to the engine component.
Not saying that localized boiling is good for today's automotive
engines - but vapour phase cooling is as old as the internal
combustion engine and as modern as tomorrow.
The What and Why
of Waste Heat Recovery
One of the most important equipment components in an engine driven
equipment installation, particularly Co generation installations, is
the Waste Heat Recovery System. This system must be designed to FIRST
provide positive engine cooling and SECOND obtain maximum economical
heat recovery while insuring reliability and longevity of equipment.
As a "rule of thumb," reciprocating engines are 30% efficient. That
is, of the fuel energy input; 30% goes to shaft horsepower; 30% to
jacket water heat; 30% to exhaust heat; and 10% to radiation, oil
heat, and other losses.
One of the oldest and most successful forms of heat recovery employs
VAPORPHASE (ebullient) cooling of the reciprocating engine. The
process of the Ebullient cooling involves the natural circulation of
jacket water at or near saturation temperature and engine cooling is
accomplished through utilization of the heat of vaporization. This is
the simplest and least costly form of waste heat recovery.
Some of the benefits of VAPORPHASE cooling are, elimination of the
jacket water circulating pump, extended engine life due to uniform
temperatures throughout the engine (normally 2-3 degrees differential
between inlet and outlet), recovered heat in the form of low pressure
steam (up to 15 PSIG) and all of the heat rejected to the jacket water
- From http://www.vaporphase.net/about.htm
You want to do some real scholarly reading on the subject of
"nucleat boiling" in internal combustion engines???
You don't even need a subscription. Nucleat boiling already serves a
very strong role in automotive engine cooling, and will become much
more commonly exploited in the future.
Want some more reading to educate yourself on the physics of boiling,
and the science of automotive coolants/cooling???
Read this: http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03987.htm
On Thursday, August 29, 2013 12:50:19 PM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Tegger should take that up with Prestone. They make
a radiator flushing product, been selling it for decades.
Here are the instructions:
1.With engine off and cool, remove radiator cap.* Drain radiator then clos
2.Pour entire contents of Prestone® Super Radiator Flush into radiator an
d fill with water. For systems larger that 12 quarts, use two bottles.
3.Run engine with heater on highest temperature setting for 10 minutes afte
r reaching normal operating temperature.
4.With engine off and cool, remove radiator cap, drain radiator, and close
draincock. Refill with water and replace radiator cap to fully closed posi
tion. Repeat step #3.
5.Stop engine and allow to cool. Remove radiator cap, drain system and clo
se draincock. Add enough recommended coolant to achieve a 50-70% concentra
tion. Top off radiator with water. Replace radiator cap to fully closed p
osition. Run engine for 20 minutes to mix coolant/water.
6.If equipped with a non-pressurized coolant reservoir, rinse, drain, and r
efill with a 50-70% solution of the coolant and water.
They run the car for 10 mins first with water and the
flushing product, then again in step 4 for 10 mins with
I agree with you. You don't want to run on pure water
for an extended period of time because antifreeze provides
corrosion inhibitors and lubrication for the water pump.
But running it on water for a few minutes at idle while flushing
it out is done all the time with no ill effects. It it's
good enough for Prestone, it's good enough for me.
Also, I'd rather do a couple of flushs and refills instead
of trying to get all the mixture out by opening block
drains, etc. Who wants to screw around with a block drain,
especially an older one, that could snap off, leak later,
etc? The only downside to the multi flush approach is that
you do wind up with more liquid that has to be properly
You are correct there too. It's my understanding that in race
cars for example, they use the min amount of antifreeze for the
application because the more water, the better it is at absorbing heat.
Learn to READ. I have been a mechanic since the
Well, he did say that some methods that you would have to do
might be inconvenient. I wonder what he thinks happens when
you take one of those cars in to a service shop? I can see
it now, customer gets a $1500 bill because they pulled the
engine to turn it upside down and drain it...... I'm sure
that goes on all the time.....
On Thursday, August 29, 2013 7:23:49 PM UTC-4, Tegger wrote:
Non response noted. I gave you Prestone, which has 50+ years of
experience with auto cooling systems. They clearly say you can
run an auto on water for 10 mins at idle when flushing. If that
advice was wrong, you'd think they would have been sued out of
business. Their coolant flush product is in every auto parts
store in the country, Walmart, everywhere. We'd all
like to see your reference that says using water for 10 mins
to flush an engine is going to damage it. Like CL, I've done
it on cars and had zero problems.
Note my actual wording above: "possible slight damage".
Running pure water DOES cause damage. But that damage is cumulative. Ten
minutes is nothing; two years would be substantial. My reference is the Ray
Bohacz article that nobody wants to bother reading.
On Thursday, August 29, 2013 8:01:12 PM UTC-4, Tegger wrote:
I believe we were talking about changing antifreeze and flushing
a cooling system. That process should be 10 mins, not 2 years.
I think everyone has acknowledged that running water for any
extended period, ie normal operation is a bad idea.
My reference is the Ray
Tegger doesn't know anything he can't read in a book, or in the
"coles notes" version of the book on the internet.
Chemical flushes are the only way to get rid of even moderately severe
scale and rust buildup in a cast iron block - and getting rid of the
scale and rust buildup is the only way to reduce or eliminate the,zone
boiling he was ranting about a few messages back.
As I said before, obviously not a mechanic.
When you are a professional mechanic / technician you work on
vehicles of all kinds - from all manufacturers, and with all levels of
maintenance. Not all customers follow the manufacturer's
specifications, or take their mechanic's advice.
So you need to be prepared to service and repair vehicles in all kinds
So you NEED chemical flushes for some vehicles. It returns the cooling
system to serviceable condition - at least partly undoing the "damage"
done by inadequate serviceing. It is part of the maintenance teqnique
and materials REQUIRED to service some vehicles.
And if you do a coolant flush and change without actually flushing and
cleaning the cooling system, and you leave 25% of the old coolant in
the engine, you are comitting fraud. You can get away with that on
your own car, but not on a customer's car.
It's been 41 years since I got my mechanic's licence - 10 years of
that spent as a dealership service manager. Hundreds of happy,
satisfied customers. Because I made sure their vehicles were properly
and effectively serviced.
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