Older house wiring puzzle

David Nebenzahl · 2009-09-10T23:43:09+00:00

Have a client with a house built in the '20s, originally knob and tube wired but (partly) converted to more modren wiring methods. Basement ceiling is exposed and where the majority of the house wiring is. Lots of strange, non-standard and some clearly improper wiring exists there: "flying" splices between K&T wiring and NM or armored cable (no junction box), and one place where someone just ran a single insulated wire (THHN or whatever) as a neutral from one place to another. Plus exposed K&T runs going everywhere, one right next to the hot-water shutoff valve.So I've figured out pretty much what goes where and how to replace it (mostly with runs of Romex, since it's not an occupied space).But there's one thing about the old wiring that's puzzling to me. Usually K&T runs are done with pairs of wires (Hot & neutral) running alongside each other, and in most cases that's followed here: a run up into a wall will have a pair of wires going up into the subfloor.But there are a couple of places where a *single wire* is routed up out of the basement into the house above. In these cases, the wires are all hots. No corresponding single neutral wire anywhere nearby. Presumably the neutral side of the circuit is tied to the neutral of another pair of wires.This, of course, makes it difficult to map these circuits, since I can only assume that the neutral connection is made to the neutral wire corresponding to the hot wire. That's my operating assumption, anyhow: my plan is to simply replace these single-wire runs with Romex, using only the black wire. (Hmm, wonder if they make 12-1 Romex w/o ground? Probably not.)Anyone ever seen this situation in an older house?

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bud-- 16 years ago

It is refreshing to know there are still people that use a Ouija board. The rewire included a couple kitchen circuits and a laundry circuit, amongst other additions.

Insurance companies don't know if modifications to old 2-wire tar/paper jacketed Romex was done correctly either.

Still missing - the actuarial data that shows K&T is a significantly larger problem that other older wiring. What has been shown is that an insurance company, when challenged, did not provide that data and was ordered to provide insurance. And that State Farm had a surcharge in MN that it was ordered to drop because it had no substantiating data.

How about the PA houses (perhaps hallerb's) where inspection was never required. Should an insurance company insure them? Are they safer than a house with K&T where work was inspected?

How many houses are there with a 30A 120V service? You will probably have to look real hard to find a K&T house that has not had major additions. (It should probably be on the national registry of historic buildings.)

How many houses have "unmolested 2-wire tar/paper jacketed Romex". Where is the data?

Ouija board again? Maybe you borrowed hallerb's?

It can be very large potatoes depending on the construction and what is being done. For instance replacing ceiling lights and wall switches on a

1st floor when there is a 2nd floor is a major job. (This is obvious in a recent question from blueman.)

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clare 16 years ago

Actually, that is the EASY part. Repair to flooring are the SIMPLEST and CHEAPEST part of renovating a house. In many cases going through the second story floor to wire the main floor is simpler than doing the second floor from the attic (assuming a non-usable "attic" space)

When we wired the old "homestead" back in the sixties all the existing K&T was stripped out for scrap, and boards were removed from the upper story floor to gain access to wire the main floor, as well as the upper floor with exception of ceiling lighting (which there was not a lot of in a slope-ceilinged story-and-a-half house which was 88 years old at the time - and to that point TOTALLY unmolested.

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hallerb 16 years ago

just a few years ago statistics showed the average person moves every

7 years.

now think about that, lets raise it to 10 years.

so a 70 year old home could of easily had 7 owners or more in 70 years.

each a risk of mucking around their wiring, trying to make do.

BUD NOTE !!!

K&T is the ONLY wiring system with no boxes.

boxes that can permit inspection of the wiring.

K&T is buried in walls, impossdible to inspect without opening those walls, and at that point you might as well just rewire.............

a home today with 30 or 60 amp main fuse box probably cant get homeowners insurance either.

just like K&T insurance companies are risk adverse.

heck while I type this network news reports chinese drywall homes are losing their homeowners insurance...... policies cancelled

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bud-- 16 years ago

I would never remove boards from my tight hardwood floors - the boards would likely have to be replaced with matching wood then finished to match. I would rather match plaster and paint to match.

And my subfloor runs across the joists with the finish floor parallel the joists. If you remove a couple finish floor boards you then have to cut the subfloor. That cuts the structural strength of the floor.

I have never seen a finish floor in a house I worked on that I would consider cutting. And I have never seen electricians cut the floor. It may have been done long ago.

hallerb's source includes "case studies" of wiring changes done in conjunction with insulating houses. In no case was all of the K&T removed (as hallerb insists must be done for safety). In no case were any floor boards removed except in attics. In one house there was quite a bit of surface raceway added.

Still missing - data that says K&T is significantly more hazardous than other wiring. hallerb's source disagrees with him. And hallerb's source leaves K&T wiring in the rewiring they show - in hallerb's home state.

Still missing - data that shows there is a significant hazard in the very large number of houses that have K&T wiring and have been insulated. The "Illinois report" looked and couldn't find such data. hallerb's source insulates over K&T.

You and hallerb are long on opinion and short on facts. The NEC was also short on facts in the code change.

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clare 16 years ago

Not at all if it is properly replaced.

Hardwood floors would be a bit more of a problem - This house had pine board floor with linoleum on it. Many have plywood (or even aspenite) sheathing today with vinyl, or carpet covering. On the pine T&G we just ripped the board down the center and popped it out. Dad put a cleat on the back of the one part, and screwed and glued the second half to the cleat after fitting the T&G back together. Absolutely no loss of integrety, and new flooring covered it that you couldn't tell it had ever been open. He did a LOT of rural electrification work back in those years, and very seldom had to do much plaster removal.

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hallerb 16 years ago

yet bud concludes K&T is fine despite the fact it must of been altered.

hey I have the NEC agreeing with me:) while bud has a few exceptions which may have changed by now, since its been a lot of years since buds illinois report came out.

and state farm sopped surcharging K&T they just refuse to write new policies

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hallerb 16 years ago

the cost is small potatoes in comparison with the cost of buying a home, and $ probably less than a new roof, new kitchen or bath or other common major home upgrade.

homes arent just a place to live, for nearly everyone its their biggest lifetime purchase and their most valuable asset.........

why muck around trying to avoid spending a few grand, for the biggest asset of your life?

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bud-- 16 years ago

"Must have been altered"? Can't you read? [A rhetorical question - it is obvious that you can't.] What you quoted above is that K&T had NOT been altered.

The Ouija board at work again? As always long on opinion, short on facts. If anything I expect more jurisdictions allow insulation. Including yours. Why does your state allow insulating over K&T?

Who said State Farm surcharged K&T. Can't you read? [A rhetorical question - it is obvious that you can't.] How can you say such stupid things? Do you have help or are you that stupid by yourself? Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Have you figured out that your source does not agree with you? Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring? Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

Why can I answer your questions but you can't even answer one of my questions? Aren't you smart enough to answer questions?

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hallerb 16 years ago

sure there are unmodified K&T installs out there. NOT!

in its lifetime estimates indicate at least 7 and probably more families lived there......

each likely making changes to get by:(

the root of the problem is anything approaching 100 years old.

even solder joints dont last forever, espically if overheated, which insulating around can lead too, besides overfusing.

this 20 amp fuse blows so often just install a 30:(

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bud-- 16 years ago

hallerb knows. It was in a nightmare last night. But there is a lot of original K&T with added wiring, just like my mother's old house.

hallerb's Ouija board told him.

What about people who parade beliefs as facts, can't figure out what has been said, and can't even answer questions? Have you seen Soylent Green?

And have you figured out that _your source_ does not agree with you? Why does _your source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is _your source_ wrong or are you wrong?

Something hallerb read in the National Enquirer? Certainly didn't come from anyone who knows anything about solder. Why does _your source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Did you even read _your source_?

It is what hallerb does all the time. It is why his Romex is rotting.

Another post with beliefs and no facts. And still too dumb to answer even one question?

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Why does _your source_, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by _your source_)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

But reality doesn't bother a fanatic.

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hallerb 16 years ago

where the insulation

bud has lost it........ but he is funny to read.

disagreeing with the NEC is buds hobby.............

and for bthose who had a home fire caused by insulating K&T........

bud doesnt care.................

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bud-- 16 years ago

hallerb clings to his opinions, just like the creationists. All hallerb has are his opinions. Even his _own source_ disagrees with him.

Not understanding the NEC is hallerb's hobby.

Do you still think with a major rewire the whole house has to meet the current NEC (like receptacle spacing)?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago?

Ho-hum. Still missing - data that shows there is a significant hazard in the very large number of houses that have K&T wiring and have been insulated. The "Illinois report" looked and couldn't find such data. But hallerb doesn't care. He believes there are fires all the time.

Still missing - answers to even one question.

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Have you figured out that your source does not agree with you? Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring? Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

Even creationists answer questions.

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hallerb 16 years ago

Hi Bud, see your still spewing nonsense:(

If insurance requires all K&T is taken out of service, and its a LOT, then most places require a complete rewire bringing the home to current code.

if you get a permit, GFCIs, main breaker panel, arc fault, receptables every X feet, ground jumper at meter, ground rods at service etc etc etc.

you cant just replace the K&T with one outlet per room. not and pass inspection

of course code means nothing to you, no doubt you hack the wiring everywhere you go.

or you would have at least a little respect for the NEC and what they do.

which is for everyones safety

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hallerb 16 years ago

Video Proves Cars Are Safer Than Ever

just like new wiring is safer than K&T.:)

sad they destroyed a 50 year old car:(

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hallerb 16 years ago

try again:(

formatting link

|htmlws-sb-n|dl4|l=ink4|http%3A%2F%2Fautos.aol.com%2Farticle%2Fcrash-1959-chevy

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bud-- 16 years ago

Complete nonsense. The NEC only covers the work done. There is no jurisdiction that will require outlets be added so any point is 6 ft max from an outlet (the current NEC requirement).

Your stupidity is astounding. With minimal reading ability you could look at the "case studies" in your source and see that what you say is nonsense.

Cite.

You are beyond pathetic.

One of us has a licence and understands the scope and content of the NEC.

Have you figured out yet that your source from your state totally demolishes your opinions?

Why does your source say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring? Why does your source, when it does some rewiring, leave K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? How could they do that in your home state?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does your source insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

Do you still think the NEC applies even when the controlling jurisdiction has an electrical code different from the NEC?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago?

Have you figured out if I am a master electrician yet?

Still can't answer the questions?

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hallerb 16 years ago

bud if your a master electrician how many homes have you burned down?

nationwide most areas follow the NEC since if they dont and something bad happens the local is on the hook........

no comment about the crash test of a 59 car vs a new one today?

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bud-- 16 years ago

Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded newsreader?

How long will you troll because you can't admit you are wrong? _Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

NEC goons will appear? The goons have a hook? Have the goons gone after your source? Do you understand that the hallucinations will stop if you stop using drugs?

Why can't you even answer one question?

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

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hallerb 16 years ago

Bud you OCD? you appear stuck:(

why havent you filled in your profile here? if you were truly a master anything you should of done this.

if a local juristiction decides to not follow the NEC ( national electrical code ) they can be fiancially liable.

you would know this if you were a electrician..............

obviously your not.........

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bud-- 16 years ago

Still too retarded to remove the retarded artifacts of your retarded newsreader?

Still trolling because you can't admit you are wrong? _Your own source_ disagrees with *all* your opinions.

You are as uninformed about newsgroups as you are about electrical (what a surprise). Newsgroups don't have "profiles". Look them up in Wikipedia.

A non-governmental organization (the NFPA) has power over state, county or municipal governmental agencies that are the organizations that adopt codes? This may be your stupidest idea (out of many to choose from).

Jurisdictions can adopt the building codes they want. There are multiple general building codes. It is not at all uncommon for jurisdictions to modify the NEC.

Still missing (what a surprise) - answers to even one question.

Why does _your own source_ not bring the whole house up to the current code like you say is required? Your source does only the electrical work it wants to - often very little. Is your source wrong or are you wrong?

_Your own source_ doesn't even remove all the K&T wiring. Isn't your source as smart as you are? How can they do that in your home state?

Does the NEC still allow K&T to be refed, just like it was in my mother's old house over 50 years ago? Like your own source does?

Why does _your own source_ say "properly installed and unaltered K&T wiring is not an inherent fire hazard"? Is your source wrong or are you wrong? You pointed at the "photos of hacked K&T wiring" in your source. Why weren't most of the photos identified as involving K&T wiring? Couldn't your source, which was about K&T wiring, find hacked K&T wiring?

Mike Holt is well known in electrical circles. In his discussion forums why don't electricians share your paranoia about K&T? Are they stupid? Why do they just think K&T is a wiring method that just has to follow NEC rules?

Why was the NEC change not based on data indicating a problem? Why do many jurisdictions, including at least 5 whole states, allow insulating K&T wiring? Why does _your own source_ insulate over K&T? Aren't they as smart as you are? Why does your own state, PA, also allow insulating over K&T (as is done by your source)? Why did the "Illinois report", to a state agency, not find significant numbers of house with K&T wiring and insulation where the insulation caused a fire? They looked for a problem and couldn't find it. Weren't the authors as smart as you are? Where is the data about fires in the huge number of K&T houses that have been insulated? So many houses and no problem?

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