no housewrap...

It's not wrong with regard to water impenetrable surfaces such as metal and plastic, and not wrong when applied to well painted wood siding, even unpainted shingle and shake siding. Sure, people used tarpaper to keep the water out, it was cheap compared to putting siding on. People skipped the siding because of poverty not because of something else. Everyone wants to argue about brick walls, but water seeps through brick, so you need drainage holes. Brick is great for long term wear, but the multitude of joints leads to water penetration, so construction needs be in accordance. Wooden shingles, for instance, shed water. Hell, I use to see light through small cracks in shingled roof of our house (no ceiling in the upper story) when I was little but rain and snow never penetrated. There was no tarpaper between the shingles and the wood structure. Heck, how old do you think tar paper is?

Sure is does those things, but the marketing is for reduction of air flow. Most houses that I see constructed without Tyvek do not have any kind of wrap and certainly tar paper is never used as a wrap. Small pieces of tar paper may be placed at strategic points around window and door openings and much of the sheating is water repellant, e.g., foil covered foam. But the plywood pannels used for strength are never covered with tar paper. Of course exterior plywood is used and the glues are water repellant. However, I don't see any treatment of the joints between pannels. If water penetrates the siding it will wet the sheathing, the frame, and the wall insulation.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon
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So...then, tell me, do you have research to prove this? Is so, is it available? Seems to me that the Building Science guys aren't just out there making stuff up because it sounds good...

Reply to
3D Peruna

George,

What's your theory then on rotted out, molding, damaged, destroyed houses? There's a lot of 'em around...

P
Reply to
3D Peruna

What is false is that a properly built house will not allow water to pass through the siding

It makes sense, you just chose to ignore it.

THe existing code required building felt or other approved materials (i.e. tyvek) my understanding of the new code to be issued will require a tyvek type housewrap

No, you were implying why not to use it.

Reading comprehension is not one of your strong points is it......what part of AND don't you understand

Building felt was never sealed, i.e. taped........vapor pressure was not trapped by it. It was a decent moisture barrier from the outside if properly lapped. therefore it was not a true moisture barrier from the inside.......you really don't know what you are talking about.

Reply to
Paul Fritz

As I stated in another post, 2000 requires building felt or other approved material as a moisture barrier underneath the exterior veneer. My understanding is that the next generation of code will change to housewrap.

Reply to
Paul Fritz

What research is needed? The manufacturer states the purpose of the product. That's it.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

Most house are made of wood which just naturally rots. But poor construction, poor design, poor materials, etc. sure help it along. The point, however, is that many houses are still functional after 100 years and were designed and constructed to shed rain, snow, sleet, and hail when house wraps and house calks were unknown.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

If you put a moisture barrier on studs or over sheathing, overlaping the pieces by 6-12 inches, and then nail siding on, the moisture barrier will be sealed by the pressure of the siding against the studs or against the sheathing. T-11 siding will really seal it, but so will shiplap or any other real wood lap siding.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

A. it will not be sealed, thus allowing water vapor to escape. Also, older homes were not sealed as well........poorer construction, leaky windows, doors etc, so building felt acting as a vapor barrier was not as critical as it is today. B. Tyvek is a superior product which is why the code is moving toward requiring it. Just as a ball point pen is superior to using an ink well.

You continue to show you don't have a clue to what you are talking about.

Reply to
Paul Fritz

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Cripes you are cluless.......so what part of AND don't you understand

"Wrapping a home or building in a weather-resistant barrier is not just good sense, it's good building practice. Because it helps combat water, moisture and air infiltration that are any structure's worst enemies. Allowed to penetrate behind siding, wind-driven rain and moisture can saturate walls, creating a breeding ground for mold, mildew and wood rot. The properties of Tyvek® do not support the growth of mold or mildew. Air infiltrating from outside can create comfort-robbing cold or warm spots while increasing heating and cooling costs.

DuPont Tyvek® acts like a windbreaker and wrapped over the sheathing and under the exterior siding-cut out around windows and doors and taped securely at the seams-resists air infiltration and water intrusion and makes for a more comfortable, energy-efficient home or building. "

Of course the manufacturer is going to stress the air infiltration aspect since that one of the features that makes it superior to building felt.

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Reply to
Paul Fritz

You cannot build like they did yesterday and meet today's codes.

One of our buddy Joe's favorite lines is "...energy conservation has the potential to destroy more buildings than architects."

If we built like they built 100 years ago, I'd agree. But if you build to meet current energy codes with standard building materials using typical craftsmanship, you'll build a house that rots away in 10 years. Changes in the energy usage requirements have (and changes in building codes -- like the ones in Minnesota) mandate a change in the way buildings are constructed if you want them to last 100 years.

Those changes require managing moisture from the interior and the exterior. If you assume things are going to get wet, then provide a way for them to dry out. Housewraps and building felt (which isn't inferior to housewraps in many applications, in fact, it's better in several) are one of the pieces in the water management system of a building.

Personally, I'm looking towards different materials and methods...and I'm not an environmentalist nut, either. I try and design buildings that will last 100 years AND are affordable to build AND look good. As part of that design, I use building paper and housewrap, carefully considering what is appropriate for each situation.

Reply to
3D Peruna

You really don't want to go down this road, do you?

Reply to
3D Peruna

It only takes common sense to understand that housewrap will restrict airflow to the substance it surrounds. Put your hands in your pockets when the cold wind blows and see if your pants material will block the elements. Whether it blocks moisture who really cares, if you have that much moisture where it can soak the housewrap, you have much larger problems because you are probably in an area that is prone to flooding or hurricanes.

I would say that housewrap is less necessary in warmer climates. Spec-Home builders skimp on a lot of things to make more money and not wrapping is just another way, like using single pane windows or poorly rated appliances. I would never buy a completed spec home unless I knew the builder had a good reputation.

Reply to
Mike

George,

I've been following this thread with interest and I think there might be a couple points left to consider. First, water will make it's way behind even the most perfectly installed siding. In a normal rain shower, on an otherwise still day, the siding will indeed shed most of the water. Throw a big gust of wind into the picture though and all bets are off. Wind and/or wind induced pressure can drive or suck water up and behind the siding. Even in still weather, capilary action between close fitting claboards has been shown to draw in water, but this is probably much less of an issue than the wind driven rain. Once behind the siding, the only barrier is the housewrap or building (tar) paper. Without this barrier, rot, mold, and paint damage are just a few of the problems that can result. The amount and speed at which this damage can occur will vary widely based on a miriad of factors - frequency and severity of wetting, quality of the sheathing and siding, etc, etc. IMHO, a rainscreen wall constructed with either furing strips or one of the poly mesh products (i.e. EnkaMat or Obdyke Home Slicker) is the best way to ensure longevity. Whether you put the rainscreen over building paper or housewrap probably makes very little difference

- it just needs to drain. Another purpose of the rainscreen is to keep the siding from directly contacting the housewrap (or building paper). Surficants in many siding products will cause housewrap to lose repellancy. The airspace helps protect against this. I was just told by one of my suppliers that one of the largest "corporate" builders in the Metro Seattle area recently decided to start using a poly mesh rainscreen on all their homes, to help limit their potential exposure to mold lawsuits. The Building Science folks are as far as I know the only unbiased agency out there doing careful and extensive research on the total building *systems* that have become common over the last twenty years. Their results have been published in many of the leading trade journals. I wouldn't be so quick to poo-poo their opinions. Finally, as far as saying what their product is good for, it's not really the "manufacturer" that does this. Technically, it's the manufacturers marketing department. At an outfit the size of Dupont, I'd bet the engineers who developed the product probably don't even work in the same city as the marketing guys who tell us what it's good for. The marketing guys will promote whatever uses tend to move the most product - end of story.

Regards,

Richard Johnson PE Camano Island, WA

Reply to
Rich-in-WA

Not according to the code referenced. Veneer is masonry veneer.

Sincerely,

Donald L. Phillips, Jr., P.E. Worthington Engineering, Inc.

145 Greenglade Avenue Worthington, OH 43085-2264

snipped-for-privacy@worthingtonNSengineering.com (remove NS to use the address)

614.937.0463 voice 208.975.1011 fax

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Reply to
Don Phillips

message

It is a requirement for masonry veneer but not vinyl/aluminum siding. I gave you the 2003 IRC reference. Housewrap is not required for siding.

Sincerely,

Donald L. Phillips, Jr., P.E. Worthington Engineering, Inc.

145 Greenglade Avenue Worthington, OH 43085-2264

snipped-for-privacy@worthingtonNSengineering.com (remove NS to use the address)

614.937.0463 voice 208.975.1011 fax

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Reply to
Don Phillips

The code is not moving towards that for siding. I have already made the code reference. I suggest you look it up.

Sincerely,

Donald L. Phillips, Jr., P.E. Worthington Engineering, Inc.

145 Greenglade Avenue Worthington, OH 43085-2264

snipped-for-privacy@worthingtonNSengineering.com (remove NS to use the address)

614.937.0463 voice 208.975.1011 fax

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Reply to
Don Phillips

And that's a good thing...I always recommend a weather barrier, weather housewrap or building paper, but each has appropriate uses. Housewrap cannot be a complete replacement for building paper.

Reply to
3D Peruna

As part of that design, I use building paper and housewrap, carefully considering what is appropriate for each situation.

OK, so where is #15 felt better than Tyvek, considering that it leaks air?

Reply to
Misterbeets

I don't find anything to disagree with you. The use of new materials dictates using new construction techniques and designs. Older carpentry, relied on gravity to get rid of water, e.g., window sills that slope down on the outside, window and door frames that are constructed to channel flow water to the outside if it does get past the siding, specific overlaps, etc. and not on materials. My main gripe is that new construction often ignores water flow and relies on caulka and materials to prevent water entry. The problem is that caulks often fail, and if the openings are not constructed to deflect water outward, that is a prescription for rotting. I'm not saying all old construction designs are good. Some can't be used because of the cost in todays environment, others are dangerous, etc., but many remain worthwhile or as a backup to more modern materials. The problem with many modern materials, is they seemed to become approved, even mandated, before proven and are later found to be problematic and can contribute to indoor environmental problems.

Reply to
George E. Cawthon

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