new washer rant

OK maybe a little off topic - dunno. Last week I replaced my ~ 15 year old Frigidaire front load washer with an LG 3170 front loader. Like all the new washers - things are computerized ... the old one was not. After about 3 or 4 loads, experimenting with the cycles & settings - it seems like the new washer is programmed to fill very slowly - so slowly that it is almost 15 minutes into the wash cycle before the load is completely wet ! The fill-periods only last about 4 seconds

- occurring every ~ 3 minutes .. geeeze ! Has anyone else experienced this ? Repair-guy comes tomorrow - I'm expecting a bunch of excuses .. ... hope I'm wrong. John T.

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Reply to
hubops
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I've used a high-end LG that's about 6 years old. It fills over several minutes, in incremental steps. Some water goes in, then it starts it's agitation, after awhile some more water goes in, etc. That goes on for maybe 5 mins. So, what you are seeing is likely normal. It's probably to minimize water usage, by sensing how much is actually needed, instead of just putting in a given amount. The wash cycle also takes a lot longer than an old top loader too. If it's working, the clothes get cleaned, IDK why you'd be calling service, it just drives up the cost of products. Did you call their customer service and ask if it's normal?

Reply to
trader_4

Newer washers (esp front loaders) use very little water. Instead of "filling" a tub and letting your clothes slosh around in it, they wet the clothes in stages, tossing them around between.

They may also *drain* many times during a wash cycle -- get the dirt out of the fabric and flush it away (instead of letting the clothes sit in "dirty water"). I think our washer actually "looks" at the wash water to decide if it's performed enough of these cycles whereas an older machine would go through a fixed routine, regardless of how dirty the clothes may have (or not!) been.

[One argument against BATHS is that the individual just sits in his own dirty water whereas one taking a shower is constantly having that dirty water flushed away!]

We've also noticed that wash cycles are notably LONGER than with old top-loaders. And, the machine seems to be a bit gentler on the clothes (than the old "central agitator").

[Your user manual will tell you how long a wash cycle should be. Our machine displays time remaining on the front panel. If you are observant, you notice that it lies (and is sometimes done sooner)]

Also, if you have sensitive skin, some of the HE detergents can cause problems -- even in their reduced quantities. You may end up looking for alternatives (and/or, following each wash cycle with a second "rinse only" cycle -- wonderfully inefficient!)

Lastly, most front loaders need a periodic "cleaning cycle". Some require a special cleaner to be added to the cycle (no clothes involved). Others just do this without a special "cleaning product". I think all machines alert you to this requirement when it becomes necessary: "check oil", etc.

Reply to
Don Y

This morning's load got me calling for service. I chose quick-wash then selected heavy load and extra rinse - this resulted in a 28 minute cycle according to the display. After about 12 minutes of wash cycle the clothes were not wet - I even paused & opened the door to check - mostly dry. I closed the door & resumed the wash - it gave one more short fill - washed for about 1 minute - still mostly dry clothes - then started to drain .. Crikey ! - for all the fancy "smart" features that these machines have - wouldn't you think that water-level might play an important part in the process ? Not to mention that all the extra unnecessary washing time is actually wasting energy and contributing to the premature demise of the machine. If the service tech can get the "dry wash" fill-up time down to

5 minutes or so - fine - 15 minutes is absurd. John T.

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Reply to
hubops

Wait until you get a new dishwasher. They can take 4 hours to save energy.

You really don't need much water to properly clean clothes. We have a top loader and it rotates the tub and sprays water over the clothes. Once wet, the solution is soaking the dirt and getting loose to move off in the rinse cycle. Before you rant, find out if the clothes are getting clean, that is what counts.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

IIRC (not home now) my manual came with a "time-table" for the various cycles, detailing what happens during certain time periods. Does your manual have one of those tables? Maybe it's normal for your model.

While I agree that 15 minutes seems like a long time, my understanding of front loaders tells me that the water level is determined by a "level sensor", not a timer.

The time it takes to trigger the level sensor depends on the size of the load and the absorption rate of the items. I believe that the machines are looking for a set amount of "unabsorbed water" to trigger the sensor.

Water enters the machine, a few rotations are made to get the clothes wet (absorption), more water is added, more rotations (more absorption) until the clothes can't absorb any more water and the sensor triggers.

3-4 minutes minutes between fill sessions does seem longer than mine, but the pattern is consistent.
Reply to
DerbyDad03

I'm not comparing damp to wet here ... the load was mostly dry = un touched by any amount of H2O - after 12 - 15 minutes of "washing". John T.

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Reply to
hubops

If by mostly dry, you mean that they aren't wet at all, then I'd agree, it sure doesn't sound right. These washers do use very little water, and the clothes aren't soaked, sloppy with water like they would be in an old top loader. But if they are actually dry then they aren't going to get cleaned either.

. Crikey ! - for all the fancy "smart"

It does, but with all the govt regulations for efficiency, they are being pushed to use the absolute min water they can. I hear you, I'd rather have clean clothes, instead of saving a half gallon of water. But you know what happens when the hippies run things.

I was at a new Whole Foods supermarket that just opened here. They have a hot and cold bar with all kinds of tasty stuff. To hold the food, they have either a paper box or a paper bowl. Both are 100% recycled/recyclable, the box for some peculiar reason is made with corners that are ready to pop apart and turn it into a flat piece. That's annoying, because you keep thinking the box is going to open up on you. First one I grabbed, one corner opened just because of the way I picked it up. But, the best part is that after going through all that, I walk up to pay for it. All I have is the one food box, I even left it open because I was going to eat it right there at one of the provided tables. The checkout person closed the box, then put it into a medium size paper shopping bag! So much for conserving resources.

Another interesting feature of the high-end LG's is that without it connected to power, if you spin the drum and press the display buttons, it will power up the display. Salesman said that was due to the energy recovery motor, which may be true. You could recover the energy from the drum/load as it spins down. How practical that is, IDK, but for sure if you spin the drum without it connected, it will power up the display/controls.

Reply to
trader_4

Agree, that's what goes on with the LG I had experience with. It adds water a little at a time, sensing somehow how wet the clothes are, then after a few mins, if it thinks it needs more, it adds some more and repeats. But 15 mins in, if his clothes are really still mostly dry, then it sounds like something is wrong. But he also didn't answer as to what ultimately happens, ie after it's all over, are the clothes clean or not?

Reply to
trader_4

They will be now - I re-washed the whole load - on Normal cycle - default settings - the timer indicated 1 hour 28 minutes at the start of the cycle ! .. at risk of repeating myself .. Geeeze. John T.

Reply to
hubops

Could be a clogged inlet valve, although I think the unit would keep adding water until the level sensor is triggered. However, this logic might be in play:

1 - Add Wate 2 - Rotate drum 3 - If(AND(lev_sens 1, cyc_time
Reply to
DerbyDad03

The hour and a half sounds about right. They do take a lot longer. You can probably sell tickets for people that want to watch. It's kind of interesting. The drum doesn't just go one way, it goes one way for awhile, then reverses, slow up, speeds down, water comes in/out, the spin cycle is at turbine like speeds.... Not like the old top loader.

I actually did a test between my 20 year old top loader and the LG, using identical towels with mustard, ketchup, dirt, etc. Used Tide for both, regular for the top loader, the high-eff toploader version of Tide for the LG. The results were that they both did about the same. One was better at some stains, worse at others and vice-versa, so there were differences, but I couldn't say that one did a better job overall than the other. The amount of time it takes can be a factor if you're in a hurry to get something clean, which happens once in awhile.

Reply to
trader_4

My longest cycle - Normal cycle, with Heavy dirt level option, extra rinse and extra spin is 58 minutes.

In 1:28, I could wash *and dry* some loads.

Reply to
DerbyDad03

OK maybe a little off topic - dunno. Last week I replaced my ~ 15 year old Frigidaire front load washer with an LG 3170 front loader. Like all the new washers - things are computerized ... the old one was not. After about 3 or 4 loads, experimenting with the cycles & settings - it seems like the new washer is programmed to fill very slowly - so slowly that it is almost 15 minutes into the wash cycle before the load is completely wet ! ( The fill-periods only last about 4 seconds

****You mean running)

- occurring every ~ 3 minutes .. geeeze ! Has anyone else experienced this ? Repair-guy comes tomorrow - I'm expecting a bunch of excuses .. ... hope I'm wrong. John T.

**Yes you are saving on water but paying in Electricity **I believe is call they high Efficiency. (I own one)bull shit)

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Reply to
Tony944

trader_4 posted for all of us...

Like your mother told you: Put on clean underwear because you never know if you are going to get in an accident.

I know when I was on the ambulance that was the first thing you did-undie inspection. No need for signs, symptoms or observations; the undies told it all. *NOT* ;~)

You know you are in trouble when they give you the alien anal probe in the ER...

Reply to
Tekkie®

Glad the warning was posted here.

I looked at Sears and they still have the old electro-mechanical dial type for $300 - $400 bucks

Will absolutely not got one of those electronic models

Reply to
philo

I was set on a front loader - the only one I could find with old-style controls was a $ 2800. Huebsch. I did consider it briefly - then opted for the $ 800. LG. Your Sears unit was a top-loader, I suspect ? John T.

Reply to
hubops

The electronic *controls* are not significant problems. Most of the problems seem to be mechanical ones (door latches, shock mounts, pumps, etc.

OTOH, the fact that the front-loaders inherently require such "precise" control over the "tub" (e.g., to rock the clothes back and forth to soak them well; to toss them around if an imbalance is detected; etc.) has me worried what will happen when the electronic *drive* quits.

By contrast, an old top-loader has only two "motor functions" (agitate and spin) that are handled mechanically.

Reply to
Don Y

At this point - 1 week into the life of the washing machine - the durability & repair ramifications are not in question - but the logic that seems to be built into those controls is very suspect. I can't understand how anything has improved, in any way, over the old-style timer & switches. With my old front loader I chose water temp; spin speed; and extra rinse via 3 simple switches ; then set the timer knob for shorter or longer wash cycles. The tub did it's reversing thing and it's slower to faster spin speed just fine, got everything wet at the start of the wash cycle - not 12 minutes into the wash cycle. I doubt that the water usage was much greater - just much smarter. John T.

Reply to
hubops

Our (front load) washer essentially has three settings:

- temperature (hot/cold, warm/warm, warm/cold, cold/cold = wash/rinse)

- spin (none, low, medium, high)

- soil level (light, normal, heavy) A large rotary knob allows you to pick from types of wash cycles -- which basically is just a shortcut for these three switch settings (though some add steam to the cycle)

I.e., our "temperature" control is the same as yours (assuming you have the same four combinations); our "spin" coincides with yours; and our "soil level" essentially adjusts the overall length of the wash cycle. We don't have an "extra spin" capability (though there is a "rinse+spin" cycle).

The thing that is "missing" is a "soak" ability; i.e., you can't throw items into the tub, let it FILL with water, then PAUSE the cycle while things sit and stew, indefinitely.

We don't set a timer as the machine looks at the clarity of the waste water to decide if more washing is needed -- or if the process can end, now. So, we don't have to "guess correctly" and ensure the machine doesn't WASTE any electricity on an *unnecessarily* prolonged wash! Nor run the load through a second time if we guessed too short!

Newer (front loaders) models use ~10G of water for a load. An older top loader would use more like 30G for the same load.

An older machine uses about twice the electricity of a newer model.

Also, newer models leave the clothes "drier" than older models -- which translates into energy savings in the drying cycle.

You can also fit more clothes in a new front loader than an old top loader (no agitator taking up space) so do fewer loads, overall.

If you don't believe this, you should be able to find corroborating data on-line complete with actual numbers (for water and electric usage). Or, look in your owner's manual.

[Of course, you'll be hard pressed to get that same information for a 20 year old unit as it wasn't a "concern" back then.]

We haven't been happy with the longer wash cycles. But, have been very pleased with the quality of wash! We've just learned to plan on WAITING for the machine longer than we did in the past (but, waiting is easy!)

Reply to
Don Y

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