MIN DISTANCE FROM EDGE OF SINK TO NEAREST ELECTRIC OUTLET

[Metspitzer]

Everyone here has said that if it is above the counter, it is required by current codes to be GFCI protected.

Does that mean you have to change it?

No

[hrhofmann]

Exactly! I opened the cover of a junction box in the basement ceiling, the joints were wrapped with tape rather than wire nuts, and the wireinsulation was so stiff I feared moving it for fear the insulation would crack off the wires. As long as they were not disturbed, everything should be fine. I put the cover back on and tightened down the screws and went upstairs.

[hrhofmann]

But the outlets closest to the sink are about 28" from the edge of the sink and I will be replacing one duplex outlet with a GFCI and slaving the second pair of outlets in the same box from the GFCI just for safety and to help sell the house so prospective buyers will have one less thing to haggle about.

[RBM]

But the outlets closest to the sink are about 28" from the edge of the sink and I will be replacing one duplex outlet with a GFCI and slaving the second pair of outlets in the same box from the GFCI just for safety and to help sell the house so prospective buyers will have one less thing to haggle about.

That's fine, just preface your inquiry by saying that you want to doll up your friends house to make it more appealing, then ask what you should do regarding older outlets and wiring. As gfretwell said, house inspectors will write up anything and everything they like. This doesn't mean that the homeowner is required to do anything, unless they choose to. If you want to upgrade outlets, make all of them grounded, if a grounding means exists, and use gfci outlets in garage, basement and outside, as well as the kitchen counters. You might want to think about smoke and or CO2 detectors as well.

[aemeijers]

If there is a ground in the box, the wiring is not 80YO. Probably the same age as the most recent kitchen remodel. 80YO house is likely on 2nd or 3rd kitchen. A 1930 original kitchen is unlikely to have any counter outlets- back then you were lucky if you got an outlet on the stove, and maybe a clock/fan outlet high on one wall. Pull-chain ceiling fixtures were still quite common back then. I'd be surprised if kitchen string hasn't been redone. Unless this is a fancy house, you were lucky to get one wall outlet per room, back then.

Of course, before you muck around, you do want to pull some cover plates, and look in basement and/or attic to see what the feed lines look like. Anything wiring older than late-50s is unlikely to be grounded, unless it is in greenfield cable or something.

[aemeijers]

There are probably soldered connections under that tape. Wire nuts did not become common practice until late 50s - early 60s, at least in my part of the country. My grandmother's 1961 house in Indiana still had some soldered connections, while this 1960 house in Michigan I am sitting in is wire nuts or screw terminals throughout.

[RBM]

FYI, the steel jacket of an AC cable constitutes and equipment ground. Greenfield, is not cable, it's conduit, and at best it's only good for an equipment ground when shorter then six foot lengths

[Bob Villa]

Some codes develop from OSHA standards. They state 6 feet from a water source. If you had a 3 ft sprayer on the sink...it would within

9 feet from the sink for a GFI. I'm not saying this is the case...just FYI.

[trader4]

.

Well said. It's odd that the answer he likes is wrong. The question asked was how close an existing outlet in an old house can be to the kitchen sink without being GFCI. It was answered many times. There is no requirement that the outlet in question be brought up to current code. At least not in the vast majority of places. There may be some localities where it is required, but they are the exception. There are likely dozens of similar things you could find in the house that do not meet current code.

Regarding the home inspector, good chance they will point it out and suggest that for safety it be made GFCI. Does that mean the seller must do it? No. The seller can simply respond that it's grandfathered and it's not a requirement. How about if the home inspector says the 20 year old furnace is nearing the end of it's life? Must the seller replace that too? Of course, in the case of the outlet, if it does get flagged, it might be better to just make it GFCI, especially in this real estate market.

[RBM]

Well said. It's odd that the answer he likes is wrong. The question asked was how close an existing outlet in an old house can be to the kitchen sink without being GFCI. It was answered many times. There is no requirement that the outlet in question be brought up to current code. At least not in the vast majority of places. There may be some localities where it is required, but they are the exception. There are likely dozens of similar things you could find in the house that do not meet current code.

Regarding the home inspector, good chance they will point it out and suggest that for safety it be made GFCI. Does that mean the seller must do it? No. The seller can simply respond that it's grandfathered and it's not a requirement. How about if the home inspector says the 20 year old furnace is nearing the end of it's life? Must the seller replace that too? Of course, in the case of the outlet, if it does get flagged, it might be better to just make it GFCI, especially in this real estate market.

That's exactly my point. I do this for a living and deal with it constantly. It's essentially like gfretwell said, the buyer send over a "house inspector" who's job it is to write up everything he can think of that isn't perfect with the house, then the buyer uses the list to lower the price of the house. If the seller wants to upgrade certain things to make the house more saleable, that's fine, and a good idea, I just question it, when a house inspector infers things like installing a gfci in a bathroom, makes it code compliant

[gfretwell]

The other wild card in the mix is the insurance company. A lot of these guys are requiring a "4 point" inspection before they will pick up a house and that may be troubling for a lot of things that are otherwise grand fathered in. From what I am hearing any fuse panel is not allowed, even if it is a totally code conforming type S panel. Personally I would want to fight that but insurance companies will usually win that fight.

[RBM]

Years ago I would get that a lot from insurance companies, mostly in light commercial sales, and pretty much converting to S fuses solved the problem. Today, all parties concerned hemorrhage if there's a fuse panel involved. It's not even worth debating, you just upgrade the service

[hrhofmann]

.

om...

Well, the house does have fuses, about 15 separate circuits. The kitchen outlets in question are on a circuit that is separate from the other two sets of kitchen outlets. Much of the wire is BX, with some

14/2 G romex, that is easy to spot in the basement. There is a dishwasher, I don't know if it is on a separate circuit or not.

I will offer to replace the close-in outlets in the litchen and bathroom with GFCI ones to address any safety issues. Anything more than that will be up to the seller and buyer to agree upon, assuming the house does sell.

[Ray J]

replying to RBM, Ray J wrote: could you please cite the 24 inch rule... I need to show it to somebody...

I need to find where it is written down.

[gfretwell]

You are not going to find it. The 24" rule applies to the distance between receptacles serving a kitchen counter, You can have one on the wall directly behind the sink if you want although it is a horrible design. The rule about sinks is any receptacle within 6' of a sink must be GFCI and all counter top receptacles in a kitchen have to be GFCI

[clare]

According to code any outlet within 6 feet requirea a GFCI