I just bought a 72x80 French Door for my patio. It is heavy. I thought abou t taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And temporari ly installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then installing the doors and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door might "rack" and be actua lly harder to install this way.
I really also wanted to take the doors off so I can paint everything real g ood before installing. (Including jams, etc.) I am replacing a door and fra me that rotted so I don't want to deal with that again.
Unfortunately most of the time I have to work by myself so the door weight is an issue. It is possible I could get some help lifting it when time to i nstall but not 100% sure.
I plan on priming everything with kilz latex primer and top coating with a quality latex paint. When we built the house several years ago I painted th e brick mold with enamel and every one of them peeled badly.
I appreciate any help. By the way, are these hard to install?
You *really* should try to get help. Taking it apart is asking for trouble. You might be able to make it a little easier by tacking wood strips on one side that line up with plumb, so that you can then just lift the door assembly, push it against the strips, and nail it. (By wood strips I mean something tacked on where the finished inside casings will go, so that the door assembly can be raised into position and pushed against the strips, without falling through onto the floor.)
Don't use Kilz for priming outside. Don't use latex for priming. (I was at a job awhile ago where cheap, pre-primed moldings were left out in the rain. They were the factory-primed, finger-jointed type. Not only were the joints coming apart, but the primer came off in full sheets! Water-base paint doesn't soak in and can't resist moisture.
Exterior oil paint is hard to get these days. Exterior acrylic/latex simply can't resist moisture. But at least you can get good oil primer. Use a linseed oil primer like Benjamin Moore's Moorwhite. It will take overnight to dry, but it soaks in. Fast-dry oil primers are not much better than water-base primers. They usually don't soak in. (There's probably a better brand than Benjamin Moore, but I don't know what it might be. Even contractors these days are wanting to use quick- dry primers and latex paint, so there's a reduced market for good paint.)
You also need to figure out why the old door rotted. That shouldn't happen.
I really also wanted to take the doors off so I can paint everything real good before installing. (Including jams, etc.) I am replacing a door and frame that rotted so I don't want to deal with that again.
Unfortunately most of the time I have to work by myself so the door weight is an issue. It is possible I could get some help lifting it when time to install but not 100% sure.
I plan on priming everything with kilz latex primer and top coating with a quality latex paint. When we built the house several years ago I painted the brick mold with enamel and every one of them peeled badly.
I appreciate any help. By the way, are these hard to install?
out taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And tempora rily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then installing the doo rs and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door might "rack" and be act ually harder to install this way.
good before installing. (Including jams, etc.) I am replacing a door and f rame that rotted so I don't want to deal with that again.
t is an issue. It is possible I could get some help lifting it when time to install but not 100% sure.
a quality latex paint. When we built the house several years ago I painted the brick mold with enamel and every one of them peeled badly.
Is it okay to just take the doors off to paint? I used a good quality oil b ased paint last time and every one of the jams and molding peeled. These we re also the finger jointed pre primed material. It help good on the metal d oor though.
Are you saying an oil based primer is different than oil based paint? Shoul d I use an oil based primer with latex on top?
I did find the reason for rot. The contractor that built the house did not install flashing on the door nor did he install flashing where the deck att ached to the house. I have been working as I have time for the last few mon ths replacing the rim joist, osb sheathing and the sub floor underneath the door. I got all that back in. Trying to figure out now the best way to tho ughly paint the new French door and install it.
Yes. I wouldn't. It's just easier to get at them when they're hanging. But it's up to you. You might find it easier to get the ends if the doors are off. But to hang it the whole unit should be together and stable, so that it's all on one plane and the jambs are the right distance apart.
and every one of the jams and molding peeled. These were also the finger jointed pre primed material.
You primed over pre-primed? That might help a little, but basically the preprimed wood is junk. The primer is junk and hides the low-quality, jointed wood that the moldings are made of. And once a little expansion/contraction gets going, along with moisture, the joints start to separate and let water in. For something like interior use in low-budget rental property they might be OK, but in general there's just no reason to use pre-primed. Carpenters buy it, I think, mostly because the majority don't really know how to paint, so they think pre-primed is a clever, time-saving idea.
I've been using some PVC and vinyl lately in places where water is a problem, but I'm ambivalent: It looks cheap if it's not painted, yet I don't know how well paint will stick in the long run. But I'm using vinyl
1/4" x 1 1/2" right now for the horizontal strips on a deck railing that rotted out. (The strips that hold the ballusters in place, which then get nailed to the top and bottom rails.) It's in a damp, shady spot and all of the lower strips rotted because the builder used mahogany lower rails and didn't paint them, so water got in under the painted 1/4" strips. I'm now using vinyl and painting the whole thing. I hope the vinyl won't peel, but even if it does peel a bit, it will last much better than the wood.
Are you saying an oil based primer is different than oil based paint? Should I use an oil based primer with latex on top?
Primer is different from finish paint. It's meant to soak in and be porous enough to bond with the top coat. But what I meant was that oil finish paint has become hard to find due to EPA regulations. Most companies have a version sold in quarts, but I don't know how good they are. I have an old gallon of Benj. Moore house paint that I use at home for things like window sills. It's thick, flows well and dries with a tough film. The newer paints tend to be thinner and act more like solid stains: less of a tough film. For instance, BM sells something called DTM - direct to metal. It's an exterior oil paint that conforms to EPA. My understanding is that they have to say it's for metal. It works fine on wood. It seems OK, but it hasn't been around long enough to know how it will last. Sherwin Williams has a similar product. They come in quarts. I use them for some trim because water-base simply won't hold up. But I don't really have any way to know how good those new formulations are.
There are also very expensive lines from Europe, and now some American ones. BM came out with something that's $50/quart. Maybe it's great, but $50/quart is too high to justify even trying it out.
I've been generally switching to Sherwin Williams because BM has downgraded their products. I actually prefer Pratt and Lambert, but lately I can't get it where I live. The companies are taking different approaches. BM has reformulated many products to conform with tougher state fume regulations, while P&L apparently just decided to pull out of markets where they can't still sell their high quality products. (Example: BM interior Satin Impervo oil has been badly downgraded. P&L interior Red Seal oil is a superior product, comparable to the original Satin Impervo, but it's no longer sold in states with the most stringent fume regulations.)
It's very furstrating. The products and their availablility keep changing, and while oil paint is being phased out, water base paints just can't replace them in terms of either durability or smoothness of finish.
I recently found a couple of gallons of Cabot's oil deck stain and solid oil stain for a job I'm doing, but they were leftovers. Where I live, at least, Cabot's oil stains are being phased out. At this point I don't know of any soild color oil deck stain. Yet water-base deck stains are simply junk. They rub right off the deck boards within a year! I also don't know what I'll use next time I build a decorative fence. I have used solid oil stain in the past. The best idea I have now is Moorwhite oil primer with acrylic stain.
So using oil finish paint outside these days is somewhat experimental. There's no real oil base house paint anymore. But at least one can still get oil base primer. And yes, you can coat that with acrylic/latex paint. But you also have to watch out for cheap oil-base primer. Again, contractors often cut corners for convenience, preferring the quick-dry primers. But if it's quick-dry it's not soaking in. That kind of thing is not suited for outside.
out taking the pins off the door hinges and removing the doors. And tempora rily installing the frame. (Because it is lighter). Then installing the doo rs and "plumbing everything". Someone said the door might "rack" and be act ually harder to install this way.
good before installing. (Including jams, etc.) I am replacing a door and f rame that rotted so I don't want to deal with that again.
t is an issue. It is possible I could get some help lifting it when time to install but not 100% sure.
a quality latex paint. When we built the house several years ago I painted the brick mold with enamel and every one of them peeled badly.
By the way. The door already has the outside brick molding. You said someth ing about using a nailer to keep the door from falling inside. Wouldn't the molding keep it from falling in that direction? Are you supposed to remove this molding before you install the door? (I never have on regular doors.)
Hi, I never saw French doors installed with doors removed. I don't think you can install it alone(asking for trouble) I had my houses built 5 times watching them go up every step. Cabin was built myself as a general contractor hiring qualified people. Small cabin has two sets of French doors which was installed without any issues. You definitely need helping hands for this one. Problem is the size and weight.
I have five sets of steel French doors. All have phony muntins made, I presume, of vinyl, maybe PVC, could be polyurethane. I painted all 17 years ago with Glidden's Porch & Floor poly enamel. All are still good. I'm glad because they are a bear to paint. None of them are really exposed, however, they are under roof leading to lanais and a screen porch.
But you can clean up with soap & water! :)
I really don't get it...the good ol' boys in DC kill a superior product to help the environment but everybody is still tooling around in cars belching exhaust fumes. Catalytic converters or not, I somehow feel that cars are way more deleterious to the environment than oil paint ever was.
Take off the doors by removing all hinge screws. Take off any other hardware, gaskets/weatherstripping too.
Paint the doors. This could take a while because ideally, they should be painted flat, easier to get a decent paint job, but they have to be really dry before you can flip them to paint the other side so while you are waiting, paint the outside of the jambs and stops
Reinstall weatherstripping, hardware and rehang the doors.
Hi, That is 2 step work and a chance to get into unseen problem. Door frame is not really rigid without doors. After frame is installed when putting back the door, if they don't fit right, then what? i'd hire 2 person helping hands at least a few hours to make things easy.
| I really don't get it...the good ol' boys in DC kill a superior product to | help the environment but everybody is still tooling around in cars | belching exhaust fumes. Catalytic converters or not, I somehow feel that | cars are way more deleterious to the environment than oil paint ever was.
I thought the basic idea was good, but the execution doesn't make much sense. They've removed most good paints, so people will paint more often. If they had, instead, mandated only titanium dioxide in oil paint and banned chalk it might have been possible to get good paints that, while fumey, didn't need recoating nearly so often.
Good. Yes, you can/should leave that on and that will make it a lot easier to hold it in place by yourself. You won't need the pieces I talked about. I just assumed it was a frame with no trim.
Believe it or not, a pint of high voc alkyd paint puts more polutants (other than CO2, which is "plant food") into the air than 20 gallons of gasoline being burned in today's car engines. A common 4HP 4 stroke lawn mower is "filthy" in comparison - yet no worse than that pint of paint.
Shimming the doors in the jam, installing the jam with the doors installed, is the BEST way to ensure everything fits and works as intended. Shim the door into postion, screw solidly in place, and seal with spray foam.
If an outside door, the frames ahould be wrapped with typar extending back under the siding, and the bottom "jamb" area should be covered with something like "blue-seal" to waterproof it. ASSUME it is going to leak - build accordingly - then do all you can to prevent leaks.
You have to have the doors in the frame when you shim/set the frame because just using a level is not going to give you the final fine control you nee d to get those particular doors set in that particular frame centerd so tha t they work correctly. It's hard enough to do with the doors in the frame, find some teenager in the neighborhood and give them $5 or $10 for 10 minu tes of their time to help you set the door in place.
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