No, it's the liquid phase going into the furnace and the gaseous phase
coming out. The furnace is a "phase converter". Coal and wood burners
are the same deal.
Though you have a point. Perhaps an LP fired furnace is a better
On 12/2/13 7:24 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
But doesn't a phase converter manufacture just the third phase?
So how would three phase motors run off of it if single phase is
actually just one phase? There must actually be two incoming phases.
That's why it makes sense to me that the term single phase is a
misnomer at least on the secondary side of the utility transformer.
Other misnomers if you're really bored:
On Tuesday, December 3, 2013 9:23:35 PM UTC-5, email@example.com wrote:
The IEEE says you're wrong. From an IEEE paper delivered at a
conference of power engineers and published by the IEEE. It directly
addresses the specific issue:
"Which now brings into focus the reality that standard 120/240 secondary sy
stems are not single phase line to ground systems, instead they are three w
ire systems with two phases and one ground wires. Further, the standard 120
/240 secondary is different from the two phase primary system in that the s
econdary phases are separated by 180 degrees instead of three phases separa
ted by 120 degrees. "
Check out the author's credentials, all the highly technical papers he's
had published by the IEEE.
Your response..... crickets and name calling.
Still waiting for your answer to the simple question asked a dozen
times now. What is your definition of the electrical engineering term
"phase"? How can you keep posting about something, yet you can't
even define it?
Still waiting for an answer to the simple exercise I presented. We
have what I believe you acknowledge is a two phase system used to
deliver power in the past. It had two phases and a neutral. One phase
was 90 deg off from the other. That had two phases, right?
OK, so now I change the phase relationship so they differ by 120 deg.
How many phases now? Still two? I make it 220 deg. Still two?
I make it 175 deg. Still two? I make them differ by 180, how many
phases do I have now? And if the latter is still two phase, it's
electrically indistinguishable from what you have on a 240/120V
split phase service.
All simple questions, that even a high school student could answer,
but we have no answers, just crickets and insults.
So lets take the UK system in Andrew's post - 230V, 2 wires, hot and
neutral. It is clearly single phase. Connect it to a phase-converter and
you have 3-phase. One-phase becomes 3-phase.
Your argument doesn't work. The phase-converter creates the 3rd phase
relative to the single phase source.
It is like open delta, where a single transformer adds the 3rd phase.
You could do a corner grounded open delta - you have 2 clearly single
phase transformers that give you 3-phase.
This discussion seems to keep going on, continued from prior identical
threads on other newsgroups. Each person is repeating the same thing
over and over. It is clear that I'm not the only one with too much time
on their hands!
Yes, everyone (should) agree with the basic idea of phase. Yes, the
grids of push-pull tubes are 180 degrees apart in phase, as are the
plates. Yes, the two leads of a simple transformer secondary are 180
degrees apart in phase, regardless of whether there is a center tap or
The argument seems to hinge on whether the power grid uses the same
definition of phase. Of course it does. But then you confuse "split
phase" of a 3-phase power system with the obvious fact that a
center-tapped transformer secondary has each side 180 degrees apart from
the other. Big deal. You are still referring to the one phase of a 3
phase power distribution system, that is split into two voltages by
center-tapping a local distribution transformer.
I think this discussion is comparable to two political parties refusing
to acknowledge their positions are just two ways of looking at the same
thing. If they agreed, there would be no need for two parties!
On Friday, December 6, 2013 5:22:39 PM UTC-5, Fred McKenzie wrote:
Yes, they should, but only a few have even tried to define it.
> Yes, the
Not true. If a transformer has only two leads, they are *not* 180 degrees out of phase because there is just a single circuit. You can't see two waveforms
on a scope, because there aren't two.
Going back to what started all this, someone just said that the
two hot legs of a split-phase service are 180 deg apart. krw said
that was flat out wrong, that they are just "opposites" Aside from
the fact that "opposites" is not exactly an engineering term, what
about your push-pull example? Is it not correct to say the output
is 180 degrees apart from the input?
It's not a big deal. It's just that you then have a 3 wire circuit
with two phases present that are 180 deg apart. You can see it on a
> You are still referring to the one phase of a 3
Who is the you? And just because it's common to refer to something
as one thing, does that make it so? If everyone calls a peanut a
nut, does it make it one? My guess would be that those stuck on
the other side of this call it single phase because the PRIMARY
of the transformer is on a single phase. That doesn't change the
physics of what is on the secondary side. Also, in your experience,
can you cite an example where you split something and still have
just one thing? It is called "split-phase".
If you believe the last nonsense, I can see why you're totally confused.
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