Hot Tub - No water pressure...

[SteveB]

"Red Cloud®" wrote

First question:

Do you own a spa?

If the answer is no, please do not go on to the second or subsequent questions.

How can you bleed a spa with the pump off? You need positive pressure to drive the air out.

Why would anyone in their right brain mind want to break apart a union that is sealed, and risk creating a problem?

How in the world would one get a pipe wrench into all that tangle of pipes and wires to break a union loose?

How big are the unions on your spa? Mine are about four inches across the nut.

How long is a pipe wrench that will loosen that big a nut? Or, even, how big a set of channel locks would that take?

Bleeding spa lines by breaking unions? Sounds as rational as swatting flies with a sledge hammer.

Steve

[SteveB]

wrote

That would be Catalina Spas, one of the top ten in the world. I believe if you have no bleeders in your spa, you must have a cheap0 Home Depot special.

Your filter on your pool does not have an air relief valve? How strange.

Steve

[Red Cloud®]

You can't loosen any of the unions easily?

rusty redcloud

[Red Cloud®]

If you are commissioning a spa, you already have the access panel off. I have no idea what "pump" you are plugging in. The power is OFF to the entire unit while you are bleeding, which takes less than a minute. This is a matter of loosening and then tightening a couple of unions so that a little air escapes and water trickles in. You are correct it isn't rocket science. So why are you trying to make it sound as if it is?

rusty redcloud

[gfretwell]

You folks are describing a spa with a serious design flaw. There are no bleeders in my spa or my pool and I have never seen a need for one. If you have an "air trap" in your plumbing you should have hired a competant installer/designer

[trader4]

"If you are commissioning a spa, you already have the access panel off. I have no idea what "pump" you are plugging in. "

I don't know what you mean by the term commissioning, as opposed to draining the water and refilling it, which is required every few months. From the thread, it seemed like some people are claiming that you need to bleed air from the system every time the spa is drained. I didn't say anything about plugging in a pump. What I said was you need to remove a plug in a pump to bleed it, as pumps usually have drain plugs and that would seem to be one place you could bleed it. You could also open unions as you suggested, but I think this is poor practice as unions were not meant to be repeatidly made and broken. That is likely to make them more prone to leaking.

"You are correct it isn't rocket science. So why are you trying to make it sound as if it is? "

I'm not saying it's rocket science. I'm saying that first, in the spa's I've owned, it's never been necessary. Nor has it ever been mentioned in the owner's manual. Does your owner's manual say it's required? If it does, what brand spa do you have?

And second, I don;t have to pull any access covers to drain and change the water in my spa, so it is extra work for no purpose. Third, there are certainly spa owners who will feel uncomfortable undoing unions to bleed the system. There are likely many who don;t even know what a union is and would have to have a service call. And even with the power off, depending on what you try to open to bleed the system and where water may go, it does run some risk of water going where it shouldn't, like into the power pack.

[SteveB]

"Red Cloud®" wrote

Hey, you're the one advocating breaking apart 3" unions instead of using the tiny little bleeders. Oh, I forgot. Yours doesn't have bleeders.

Well, next time buy a good brand name spa. They have them.

Steve

[SteveB]

Look, moron.

(read on only if you are one of the people posting moronic ideas on this thread)

Every spa is different.

What works on that spa is the right thing to do.

Certain things are unadvisable ...... (running the pump while dry; breaking unions unnecessarily when you have bleeders; breaking unions unnecessarily because you don't know what a bleeder is or where it's at; buying a cheap spa that doesn't have bleeders; putting Dawn in your spa and turning it on; doing idiotic things that will get you hurt or killed; doing idiotic things that will hurt or kill your spa)

There's a hundred ways to cook a poodle, but it all tastes like chicken. There's different ways to get a spa to make bubbles. Breaking unions instead of using bleeders is like digging up a sewer pipe to unstop a leak. There's a simpler way to do it.

Steve

[Zoner]

FYI - Loosening the union to the pump fixed the problem very easily. I could loosen and tighten the connection by hand. Note that this tub has been sitting for 3 or so years dry, so I am not suprised about this. Also, it is not the newest cadillac of hot tubs.

However, my neighbor has a newer, and quite expensive hot tub, and his owners manual says to loosen this union in this event. He also noted that he has never had to do it, and has drained his tub many times. But, it would seem this is normal.

Thanks again...

PS - After I got the pump going, my breaker tripped... If you have advice on this, see thread:

[SteveB]

And redcloud felt compelled to answer:

I rest my case.

[SteveB]

"Red Cloud©" wrote

Well, then, that makes it official. The neighbor has a manual for ANOTHER tub. So, I guess that if I want to fix my Ford, I just go borrow my neighbor's Chevy manual. Yup, that clinches it.

Thank you soooooo much for your insight and input on this matter. I now know how to work on my two spas, whereas before I was ignorant of the proper procedure.

So, according to your advice, I am off to get a Chevy manual to work on my Catalina spa. Or, I will ask my neighbor if he has a Sundance spa manual or a manual for a Peterbilt.

Thanks, dustcloud

Steve

[Red Cloud®]

Yes

No, you do not need any added prssure to get enough water in the lines to replace air. Just create a vent for the air to escape

Because it works very well and the "risk" of creating a problem" is in your head.

Sounds like you don't know how to design anything, or else you bought a crap spa. Please remind me not to let you wind my watch. You sound terribly inept.

Mine are about 3 "

I generally don't put a wrench on them. They have a soft gasket in them, so hand tightening seals them easily, and I can loosen them by hand as well.

As said from the start, it takes less than a minute to crack a couple of those unions and then retighten them. It takes more energy to argue against it, then it does to simply do it. You apparently like to make mountains out of molehills. Go take a long soak and see if you feel better.

rusty redcloud

[trader4]

"Please try and folow the thread. "

I can follow the thread perfectly well, but can you? I have no problem with thinking a particular spa might have an air lock problem. What I don't buy is your assertion that it's required that you bleed all spas every time you fill them. I asked what kind of spa you have and if THE OWNERS MANUAL SAYS YOU NEED TO DO THIS??? I've never seen it in an owner's manual.

And I find it hard to believe that it's that hard to design a spa so that it will self prime and not air lock. Both spas that I have had have worked this way. I also have a hard time believing a spa manufacturer would tell anyone that it's necessary to go inside and loosen unions when filling a spa. At the least, if bleeding is required, they could provide a bleed fitting, as SteveB has pointed out. Maybe it;s you who have the crappy spa!

[SteveB]

"Red Cloud©" wrote

You seem to be the one educated beyond your capacity.

Should we ONLY believe you? Or what WE do on our OWN spas? Or what is said in our OWN manuals?

I have said, do whatever works for your spa, and I still do. If you think breaking sealed unions apart to bleed air is a good idea, go for it.

I shall continue to use my bleeders.

FWIW, yes, I do

I do not believe that believing just about anything (your words) is conducive to learning. Many people are led down a rocky road if they believe "just about anything."

Including those who will mess with the major components of their spas when all they have to do is use the intended simple devices to achieve the same results.

Now, be gone, dustboy.

Plonk

Steve

[SteveB]

"DJ" wrote

Thank you, DJ.

Steve

[Zoner]

Perhaps the union to some pumps is not easily undone, hence the need for a bleeder. In either case, something has to be loosened to allow air to escape, so either way you are breaking a 'union'. I was willing to do this at the pump, as it has a white plastic nut on it, with little grips that appears to be for your hand to tighten, not a pipe wrench or anything else. It is not a union that is cemented together, where I could envision problems arrising from trying to disconnect it. In the event of a leak, I would personnaly prefer fixing this big nut then a little bleader screw or something... Same thing, different pile.

Also, I am trying to get a hot tub running that has been sitting dry for years. While I am getting it running, I have no filter attached, as it did not come with one. It seems the filter is the first place you would look for a bleeder valve. Now that I know my pump is running, and my heater works, I am going to drain it and buy a filter, perhaps looking for a bleeder as a feature!

For the comments about crappy hot tubs, sure, mine is crappy, if thats what you call it. I now have jet action, nice hot water, and decent conformt. Its a glorified bucket of water with a pump. With a little work, I'm sure it will be good as new. Perhaps for 5 - 10k more I could get a new tub with a bleeder valve, but I think I'll wait till I retire for that. For now, thats alot of beer money for sitting in the tub - and yeah, I get a girl in my 6-man hot tub. :)

So, I got my tub running, and we've learned that different hot tubs operate, and bleed slightly different, but the concepts are pretty well the same.

Thanks again, and wish we could all steam off with a cold one in the tubs.... Cheers...

[DJ]

My CalSpa manual calls for opening the bleed fittings. In the 12 years I've owned it, I have always had to bleed it to get the pump to pull water after refilling. IMO, if you don't have to bleed it, it probably did not get drained completely in the first place. I have two bleed fittings, one near the pump, one on top of the filter lid.

Maybe RCloud can provide us with a spa manual that does indeed tell the owner he must bleed the system by opening a union, but I doubt he can...

That's kinda like dropping the oil pan to change oil in a car ain't it? Again, IMO, it seems pretty dumb to open the plumbing via a union, even though it may work.

RCloud may have an easy time of it, as I do if/when I *need* to open a union for component repair/replacement, but to suggest it as an accepted way of doing it, to a new spa owner, isn't neccessarily the best advice, but probably worth what it cost the OP.

DJ

[trader4]

"Perhaps the union to some pumps is not easily undone, hence the need for a bleeder. In either case, something has to be loosened to allow air to escape, so either way you are breaking a 'union'."

No, because a union and a plug are two different things.

"It is not a union that is cemented together, where I could envision problems arrising from trying to disconnect it. "

A union is never cemented together, as the whole purpose of the union is so that it can be disconnected.

"In the event of a leak, I would personnaly prefer fixing this big nut then a little bleader screw or something... Same thing, different pile. "

They aren't the same thing. A plug you can put tape or pipe dope on to help seal. A union, you cannot. Also a plug is easy to get a wrench on and tighten and in my experience, is far less likely to be a source of a leak.

" While I am getting it running, I have no filter attached, as it did not come with one. It seems the filter is the first place you would look for a bleeder valve."

Now I'm confused. The spas I have seen have filters which are part of the spa, not a seperate attachement, unless they are built in ones. Mine has a filter housing molded right into the shell, with a lid on top.

"For the comments about crappy hot tubs, sure, mine is crappy, if thats

what you call it. I now have jet action, nice hot water, and decent conformt. Its a glorified bucket of water with a pump. With a little work, I'm sure it will be good as new. Perhaps for 5 - 10k more I could

get a new tub with a bleeder valve, "

I doubt cost has anything to do with it. My spa is a NEMCO, just a basic spa, nothing fancy. Had it for 17+ years or so. I've never had to bleed it in any way. And during that time, not only have I drained it every few months to change the water, I've also moved it from one location to another, had it sitting on it's side for a couple months, while I sealed the patio, made repairs, etc. Each time, all I did was fill it and it fired right up, except once. Then it apparently did have an air lock problem, but just turning it on and off a couple times got it going.

I don't doubt that some spas could become air locked, as yours did or that it might take breaking a connection or opening a plug to get the air out. I just disagree that all spas require this or that you have to do it routinely every time the spa is filled.

[Red Cloud©]

Very standard service term for preparing something for use.

Please try and folow the thread. The original poster's situation was he had a pump that was running and nothing was coming out. That is almost, but not absolutely always due to an air lock. It would be the first thing to eliminate regardless. Wise man say, "When you hear hoofbeats, look for horses before you look for zebras".

He didn't report any bad noises or any other symptoms. Just no flow. The original poster also said he just finished rewiring the spa, which means he has some idea of how to do things, and would probaly have no trouble at all doing what I advised. If you have a similar situation, and don't feel comfortable working on the tub yourself, then I would advise you to call a professional.

rusty redcloud

[SteveB]

"Zoner" wrote

Look where the water goes down from the spa. On a lot of spas there are two cylindrical holes that you drop filter cartridges into and screw them in.

I don't think you got a crappy one. They're all the same. Some hot water, some bubbles, some jets.