I realize economic hard times require a flare in salesman ship but I
have to take issue with a few things. The first one is the scare
tactic about price and availability. Price wise r22 costs exactly
$1.11 more per pound than r410a. Availability wise, r22 will be
produced until 2020 although at a reduced rate as you said. How much
the price will actually go up is based on a guess but Im willing to
bet as r22 goes up r410a keeps pace.
The second one is the quantity of r22 in a 10 seer system vs r410 in
the new minimal seer rating of 13. The 22 system held (arco aire) for
instance 4.25# of r22 where as the new unit of the same size (2.5
tons) holds 4.10# of r410a. Not even close to half. The cost
differential to fill both systems is less than five dollars.
That being said, sometimes I read some of the stuff here and wonder,
is it mere ignorant misrepresentation or borderline dishonesty. I
also wonder if sometimes when these sales pitches are given if you can
actually see the sales mans nose growing.
Too bad you couldn't cut it in the resi market, and had to resort to doing
commerical/industrial in a union shop.
For now, the price of R22 has not yet started going up.... but its coming,
you know its coming. Think back to the R12 phase-out. This is the same
scenerio, but on a much larger scale.
You could be partially correct. I have met a large number of Commercial
HVAC techs that have switched to the light inductrial and residential
markets. I also note some new licensing requirements coming in the upper
states. They are going to redo licensing to :
(1)Masters Cannot touch any work, but has to be in direct contact
with journeyman at all times on the job..Cell phone is
acceptable. Cannot bid jobs, but is under a contractor.
(2)Journeyman Can do work and direct Apprentices and helpers.
(3)Apprentice must work under Journeyman
(4)helper Can only do menial chores, Wash van, Sweep floors and
not allowed to touch contract work.
There are also 4 vocation licenses. #1 would be a plumber under its own
subgroup. #2 would be HVAC at one of the above levels. #2 would be
Hydronics at one of the above levels #3 would be refrigeration at one of
the above levels.
Which means in certain cases you would have a large number of licenses.
It does appear to try and kill off the one man operations. The Unions
under the Obama administration have been the drafters of this muck.
However...HVAC licenses will place up to 40 gallon water heaters for
install and repair in our bailiwick. Any water heater above 40 gallons
will require a Plumbers license.
Last but not least the Feds seem to be involved in eliminating the EPA
licenses all the way up to Universal. For the replace system there will
be a $280 filing fee and a $300 a year renewal and possibly more.
If anyone has better data on any of this please post it.
What might increase it more is the fact that the 3 substitutes may be
pulled from the market due to some international treaty that either has
been signed or is waiting to be signed.
Resi is so easy even Stormy muddles his way through it. But hey if
you find it challenging thats cool too. Yeah I know im just a lowly
commercial/industrial union tech. Not quite as prestigious as a
residential service mechanic but it pays the bills.
Its hasnt gone up? Okey dokie. Sorry Steve I wasnt trying to ruffle
your feathers but your nose is growing.
All refrigerants have gone up and you know it. Still its no reason to
use scare tactics to convince a customer to buy a new system for
5-15G's or what ever you charge when they have a bad compressor or
something. Im all for energy efficiency and the like but sell it as
such and if your real honest about it you would point out the pros and
the cons of the newer equipment and let the customer decide whats best
for his wallet. Thats how I operate
Even if 22 went up to a grand a 30 at that point you just use one of
the drop in's for 22 at a much cheaper price. Like we did and still
do with older r12 systems. We dont sell a new walk in or reach in
because the old r12 system has a leak. We fix the leak and convert it
to 414b or what ever you flavor of choice is. We will do the same
thing down the road with 22 systems. I can just see it. you walk up
to a million dollar chiller and you tell the customer OMG its got a
leak, you need a new chiller. Yeah thats gonna fly. Not.
One more thing about this manual J stuff. I bet you a hundred bucks
that you could have five manual J's done by five different companies
and have five different results and every one of them would say they
are right and the others are wrong. The old garbage in garbage out
thingie. I mean really, theres like a 10% fudge factor built in to
the damn thing so it isnt an exacting science now is it.
You wanna talk 'difficult' ? I talked to a place today that
makes custom one-off equipment that does things like :
Maintains high flow volume ( 500 GPM + ) process water at 0.5
C. Can you say 'on the hairy verge of becoming slush' ?
Maintains other process high volume chilled flow water within
0.2 F precision of setpoint.
Does it LARGE ( is making a hundred tons of ice a day 'large'
? ), and in HOSTILE environments ( this ain't no little pansy-assed
lab equipment living in a carefully controlled environment, this shit
gets beat up by illegals all day every day ).
Does it all while maintaining FDA-level 'food grade clean'
I was impressed.
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
In the R-12 run up, the price went up for a few years.
Eventually, the replacement blends come out on the market.
And then the equipment starts to die off. As the equipment
dies off, the demand goes down, and that affects the market
and pricing. There is still R-12 equipment out there. I
know, I service them.
The latest word I have on R22 is that this year only 20% of what we
normally use will be available. The large producing companies are
indicating that the price will skyrocket and that it would be a good
idea to purchase large quantities in advance. I suspect the companies
are trying to create a shortage to drive prices up. Also it turns out
that R134A is being scheduled for a phaseout in the future also. R410
and a few others are also to be replaced. It was stated that Carrier
already has a replacement in their research facility. The socalled
replacements will consist of HFO's and CO2. This information is merely
being repeated and the source is a Johnstone Supply Training person.
On Wed, 07 Apr 2010 19:58:56 -0400, .p.jm.@see_my_sig_for_address.com
134 was always going to be an interim refrigerant long before Obama
came along because its a greenhouse gas. The Europeans are phasing
out its use in autos beginning next year and banning it all together
by 2017. Its old news. They wont be happy til were back to using
I recover every ounce of refrigerant I can. If it's not contaminated,
I'm going to reuse it. Somewhere I have a 124 lb R22 recovery cylinder.
I take a little whiff and if it doesn't burn the hair out of my nose,
a good set of filters and some Acid Away makes it usable.
Why don't you just plastic bag it and sell it to your neighbors kids?
The world has a scarcity of whoofers. If they whoof it, it won't damage
the ozone and everybody wins. Won't have to buy carbon certs for it either.
I think they're called "huffers" and most of them get off on "toluene"
which is in the paint that they huff. When the refrigerant in a system
gets burned, it takes on a horrible searing odor that is what was used
during WWI as a chemical weapon, phosgene gas, better known as mustard
gas. If you start brazing connections on a refrigeration system that has
not had the refrigerant completely removed, you will get a very
unpleasant whiff of phosgene gas. Some people get off on huffing Freon
but it can be very deadly. The HVAC supply housed have been selling
special locking caps for refrigerant service valves that may help stop
people from easily getting refrigerant from outdoor equipment.
Your customer will balk at the price of Schrader locks. As for the
problem of internal contamination in the system from brazing, will that
is why the manufacturers and professional practices require nitrogen
purging. The oxygen deprivation from inhaling a cloud of cooling gases
has long been a problem. But whoofers cherish the synaptic cross firing
created by dying oxygen deprived braincells. One of the most dangerous
of these gases is R410, as it hangs on the ground and legislation is
being enacted to insure all equipment rooms using this gas has an alarm
system and automatic venting. As for the huffers... I will leave that to
others. I deeply suspect something of that nature is infecting the
political atmosphere in Washington DC.
Geez! Who can keep up with the sub-nomenclature that describes all the
different addictive behaviors of those who are trying new and creative
ways to kill themselves. Years ago, I worked with a guy installing the
control and power systems for the first indoor cooling tower in this
area. We also did the same for the screw compressors and one of the
things I installed was a stationary refrigerant leak detection system.
I believe R22 was the refrigerant being used. Enough of that stuff can
displace the air in a room and send one to HVAC heaven. Where does an
AC tech go when he dies if he is an evil man? Hmmmm, I'll have to think
about that one.
Yeah, that's a factor I've been hearing, the efficiency is supposed to
be a lot better on newer units.Of course, due to minimal usage, I've
never had a power bill over about $130. That's in the dead of summer.
Never running it, the bill's around $70. So at most it's costing me
around $2/day to run.
The other consideration is this tax break that's currently available,
and a modest credit from the power company.
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