Heat Pump Comparison

[John‰]                      Â]

I have a bid for a replacement heat pump with two prices, one for a 12 SEER and one for a 14 SEER.

Is there a formula to figure the payback time for the price difference?

John

[SQLit]

The equipment is not as important as the installer.

Price difference is what every they want for the equipment installed, and warranteed. Having a new condenser delivered to your front yard is pretty worthless.

[Dave]

I wouldn't have a heat pump if you gave to me and installed it for nothing. Go with gas.

[Dr. Hardcrab]

Why would I want a heat dependent on current market prices AND already costs more to operate than a heat pump? (at least in my area it is)

[John‰]                      Â]

Not a big fan of heat pumps either, but I'm stuck.

Building was built in 1982 as "Total Electric"; not a gas line on the property. Since it is built on a slab, just getting a gas line into the building is problematic. Then there is the complete remodel necessary to introduce a gas burner into the living space while complying with assorted codes.

I would love to have gas, but you can't get there from here.

John

[John‰]                      Â]

I thought that I made myself clear: I have two quotes from the same installer for Rheem equipment, one 12 SEER and one 14 SEER.

Is there a formula to figure the payback time for the price difference?

John

[Duane Bozarth]

...

What about adding ground-exchange loop?

[Duane Bozarth]

...

It should be included in the sizing calculations, etc.

[Tekkie®]

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Google is your friend YOU do the research. You are welcome.

--=20

Tekkie

[Stretch]

There are formulas, but you have to look at a lot more than SEER. You need Heating degree days and Cooling degree days for your area. You also need your electric rates. The actual SEERs, actual HSPFs and must be sure that it is sixed properly. I don't have the formulas with me but I could find them in a couple of days.

As a rough guess, if the units are properly sized, a 14.0 SEER unit will use 14-15% less electricity to cool than a 12.0 SEER unit. Units are rarely exactly 14.0 or 12.0 SEER. You want to do a calculation for HSPF as well.

A properly sized and installed 12.0 SEER unit will be more efficient than an IMPROPERLY sized and installed 14.0 SEER system. A good installation can make a world of difference in COMFORT and EFFICIENCY.

Climate also has a lot to do with it as well as building construction.

Stretch

[Stretch]

John,

I also need to mention that heating and cooling use about 60 to 70 percent of your electricity. Lights, water heating, clothes drying appliances and computer use account for the rest. So if you cut your cooling bill in half, you would only reduce your electric bill by about a third.

Stretch

[Rudy]

Zactly right..

Last 2 homes: Carrier 12.5 SEER, Carrier 14 SEER and AM. STD 14 SEER

No gas heating.

[TURTLE]

This is Turtle.

well on air conditioning only the 14 seer system will burn 20% less Electricity than the 12 seer system. On heating mode there will be very little difference.

If you live in the south where you use your cooling system 10 months out of the year. the 14 seer will pay for it'self. If you live up north and only use your cooling maybe 1 month out of the year. The 14 seer will not pay back in time over the 12seer system before you need a new system to replace it with.

Cooling only : For every seer you go up in seer itwill burn 10% less electricity. these are just ruff estimates and can be explained better but a whole lot more complex thought has to be put into it.

TURTLE

[RP]

Actually it's a simple ratio Turtle. 14 is to 12 as 100% is to x%?

14/12 = 100/ x x = 12*100/14 = 85.7%

The 12 SEER is only 85.7% as efficient as the 14 SEER or IOW,

100 - 85.7 = 14.3% less efficient.

We could also look at this relationship in reverse

12/14 = 100/x x = 116.7%

The 14 SEER is

116.7 - 100 = 16.7% more efficient than the 12 SEER

No, these two numbers aren't the same, even though the two statements are saying exactly the same thing. If you want to make the difference sound bigger then use the second method.

hvacrmedic

[RP]

Yearly heat/cool cost at 12 SEER * 16.7% = difference in yearly energy cost. Assuming a yearly cost of, for instance, of $1000 with the 12 SEER, then the 14 SEER would save

1000*16.7% = $167 per year.

If the difference in price of the two systems is $500 then payback will take 3 years. This is a specific example. You will first need to find the average heat/cool portion of your annual energy bill and substitute into the argument.

In this example, over the life of the system, the 14 SEER will provide over $2000 of additional savings that will make a nice down payment on the next system, be used to buy that extended warranty, or allow you to set the t-stat to hot in the winter and cold in the summer :)

hvacrmedic

[Dr. Hardcrab]

I'll explain a little further:

My last house was 1700 square feet, not the best insulation (was built in

1968) and I had oil heat. I moved into a 2400 square foot house (built in 1977) with a heat pump. Heat pump was installed in 1997 (14 SEER Carrier with variable speed blower).

It is actually cheaper to heat my current house than it was to heat my previous one.

I USED to be a lousy proponent for heat pumps. I agreed with most people: They blow cold air and they were meant for South Caroline and points South. After living in the house I am in now for 4 winters, I am sold on them. BUT! Let me say this: I do not have natural gas available in my neighborhood. The only gas is propane. Right now propane is so expensive that it kills me to get my BBQ grill tank filled.

Now it all depends on what part of the country you live in. The climate may be different and the price of natural gas may be lower than the price of propane around here. Plus it depends on your electric rates. But where I live and with the price of oil and propane, a heat pump is the way to go (even though the local electric co-op says that oil is the way to go).

Just my opinion and this does not reflect on the station or it's management (or whatever that means...)

;-]

[TURTLE]

This is turtle.

Hey that is really simple to figger

[Zyp]

At the chance of being cast off as a good for nothin...

The reason(s) your current house is cheaper to run is the insulation. [The heat pump plays a role, and may cost less to operate in your area,] but when you compare a home built in 1968 to a home built on the cusp of 1977 - I am sure the 1977 home is built tighter, and has more insulation. Homes TODAY are extremely tight and energy efficient, more efficient that homes built in the 80's. As energy becomes more and more expensive, new homes are being built to new standards that are far more efficient. New products available even save more, particularly with the advent of HRV (heat recovery ventilators ) and ERV (energy recovery ventilators.)

[Dr. Hardcrab]

That is very true. I have no doubt that the newer house (even though only 9 years newer) is better insulated than the old, butt:

A friend of mine in our old neighborhood decided to get rid of his oil furnace and replace it with a heat pump. This past winter was his 2nd and he swears up and down that his heating bills are much lower than when he had oil. Yes, he "upgraded" HIS 1968 house (new siding, windows, insulation), but that was 3 years ago.

I'm sure it depends on the rates in whatever part of the country you are in, but I still say (for me) that a heat pump is less costly to run that oil or a propane furnace.

(and I work for an oil company.....)