My house was built in 1983 and, therefore, has GFIC circuit breakers only for the garage and outside outlets.
I would like to have GFIC protection on my kitchen outlets as well. Can I just buy a 15 A GFIC breaker and replace the old (non GFIC) breaker in the main panel?
Thanks
simple answer, yes. assuming they make one that fits your panel, and they probably do.
that said, you dont want the fridge on that circuit.
randy
Glad you mentioned the fridge. Thanks.
Maybe I should just put GFIC outlets in the kitchen, instead of using a GFIC breaker.
That's probably your best bet. By the way, when you go to the hardware store to get them, it'll work better if you ask for them by the right name: GFCI (not GFIC). Stands for Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter. Sometimes referred to as GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) - same thing.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
GFCI breakers are expensive, full size (at least for my brand) and a general PITA. Unless you have a good reason not to use a GFCI outlet instead, they are the best choice. You know that you only need one GFCI outlet per cicuit, don't you? Make it the first outlet on the circuit and those after it are protected. I think it was code back in 1983 that kitchens needed two circuits, and the refrigerator had to be on a third circuit. (Mine was done that way, also
1983, and they didn't do anything better than the bare minimum.) You might want to check if yours was done that way before installing anything.
That sound like a great idea. Question: How can I tell which one is the
*first* outlet on a circuit?Walter The Happy Iconoclast
if you dont know the answer to that question, you best get down to the library and get a time life book on home wiring. there is no simple answer. the first one is the first one and it all depends on how it was wired. there may not even be a first one. you find this out be removing outlets from the circuit and testing.
this is why i suggested the breaker in the first place. you seem to want answers, not knowledge.
randy
this thread got me checking my kitchen wiring. everything else around here was done with one buttock and it's no surprise that this was too.
there are 2 20A circuits used for outlets in the kitchen. I'm guessing that originally neither was GFCI protected. Well the previous owners must have decided at some point to add GFCI protection and probably just replaced an ordinary outlet with a GFCI outlet in each circuit. I'm further guessing that the repeated tripping caused by the refrigerator rapidly caused one of the outlets to break. The one on that circuit is broken now. It functions as an outlet but it doesn't provide GFCI protection (it fails the test button) and the circuit as a whole shows an open neutral. The wiring on the outlets looks sound, as best as i can tell given push in terminals, and the wiring at the panel is solid, so I'm guess that that indication is caused by the faulty GFCI outlet.
Of course this outlet is within 6 feet of the sink and so it's gonna have to be protected... which means flipping it over to the other circuit... which means fishing cable.... sigh....
at least i caught this before we put up all the new cabinets.
Determining which outlet in a circuit is the first one necessarily involves exposing conductors which are (or may be) live, and is inherently hazardous. Quite frankly - and no offense intended - if you need to ask that question, you probably shouldn't be trying to do that yet. First, head to your local library (or, for that matter, Home Depot or Lowe's) and get a book or two on residential electrical wiring. This isn't brain surgery, but there's a bit more to it than meets the eye. Nobody wants you to turn into a crispy critter.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
The first outlet is usually the one nearest the breaker box; but not always. You can tell the last outlet; it only has one cable going to it. And again, you can usually figure out which is first by finding out which is last. You test your theory by disconnecting one wire from the outlet you think is the first one. That will cut power to 1) the outlet in question, 2) All outlets but the one you working on, 3) All outlets, or 4) some outlets but not all.
I won't explain this; if you can't figure it out yourself, you shouldn't be doing it! If it isn't the first outlet, then you just have to try another. (Naturally you have to have the breaker off any time you might encounter a live wire...)
I am making the assumption that the circuit has only outlets on it; but that should be true for a properly wired kitchen.
Disconnect one at random. Put wire nuts on everything. Turn the breaker on, and see what works. When the answer is "nothing", that's the first breaker.
>thinking about this further. Does current code call for 2 GFCI protected outlet circuits and an additional one for a refrigerator? If that's the case I need to have a new 20A circuit run for the fridge.
Hi Doug
I have followed your advice and invested in the Home Depot "Electricity
1-2-3" book and also the "Complete Wiring" by Stanley Tools. A new challenge!Thank you for your concern.
Walter The Happy Iconoclast
Kitchen circuits are typically 20 A, not 15. One issue with a GFCI breaker is that the circuit must have a dedicated neutral. That's not likely to be the case because the kitchen must have at least two appliance circuits in addition to the dedicated appliance circuits.
In addition, GFCI outlets are less expensive than breakers now. Assuming that the outlet isn't split between two circuits (common in Canada) you can swap out the ordinary outlet with a GFCI outlet.
If you don't understand wiring principles and the concepts in this thread, get professional help. Amateur tinkering with electricity is much more dangerous than the lack of a GFCI.
Refrigerator must be on its own circuit AND must not be GFCIed. Obviously if the GFCI tripped, and was reset later, then the refrigerator has lots of unrefrigerated food that a human might not know about.
Same applies to a circuit used by both refrigerator and other appliances. Another appliance tripp> thinking about this further.
So what? Unless the two appliance circuits are installed as a single Edison circuit, there would be a dedicated neutral for each one. Of course, he'd need two breakers.
In any event, he didn't say how old his home is. It may have only one appliance circuit in the kitchen.
They always have been.
AMEN!
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Current setup has 2 20A appliance circuits running into the kitchen.
plus (but not really applicable to this problem)
15A lighting 240V/40A oven 20A dishwasher/disposalThe problem I've got is that the circuit feeding the outlet for the refrigerator also serves an outlet < 6 ft from a sink.
So I have 2 choices as I see it.
1) switch the outlet near the sink to the other 20A circuit. Provided the prev owners installed the new GFCI outlet as the first on in the stream that circuit would then be GFCI protected and all outlets near the sink would be on it. I'm gonna double check the install of that GFCI outlet to ensure it's first.The other circuit would then not be GFCI protected and all should be fine to have the fridge running on it.
2) add a 20A circuit dedicated for the refrigerator and GFCI protect both of the original 20A appliance circuits. Assuming that the GFCI outlet that broke is first in the stream I'd just have to replace that.(1) would certainly be easier but that would result in a single circuit w/coffee pot, toaster, new fangled wall oven, and then incidental appliances all on a single 20A circuit. I'm not sure what my toaster wattage is offhand but that circuit looks overloaded to me. Further it puts an outlet that is 6 ft. 6in from the sink on the unprotected circuit. There's more to this than just meeting the letter of the code. I'd really rather have that outlet on a GFCI protected circuit.
So it really look like putting in a dedicated circuit for the fridge is the way to go.
I've run circuits before in other houses but this one's gonna be a bear. Panel is as far from the kitchen as it could be. Truss roofing with a tiny dangerous attic space full of unfaced insulation with roofing nails sticking out of sheating a couple inches above your head.
Electrician coming tomorrow to give me an estimate. Sometimes just cause you can do something doesn't always mean it's the best idea for you to do it.
A'int owning a home grand! (yes it is :D )
ml
So replace that outlet with a GFCI, wired to protect that outlet only and not the rest of the circuit. No big deal. Lots easier than running a new circuit.
-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?
Ahhh Doug, this is why I post.
To do this I simply ensure that everything I want non-GFCI protected is upstream of the outlet? If the answer is yes I'm a buy you a beer!
ml
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