GFCI wiring ...

[Terry Coombs]

I have an in-panel 20A gfci breaker which will soon be wired to the outlet next to the sink in the bathroom . Later , when I add a kitchen , I'd like to supply the outlets near the sink from the same breaker , and here's the question - Is it OK to run 2 branches from the same breaker as long as I don't exceed the max number of outlets ? I guess if it came right down to it I could wire the other outlets from the one in the bath , but that's a waste of copper IMO since I'd have to backtrack at least 15 ft .

[gfretwell]

You can't put the kitchen on with anything else, nor can you put the bathroom on with anything else. You need 3 dedicated circuits (2 in the kitchen, 1 in the bathroom)

[Terry Coombs]

There WILL be multiple 20A circuits in the kitchen including dedicated ones for fridge , microwave , etc . Only the ones near the sink will be on this GFCI . Probably a total of 3 outlets max on a 20A breaker , not a problem AFAIK ... just the question about how to feed them . FWIW , I tend to limit outlet circuits to 4 outlets , though I think you can have up to like 6 .

[Terry Coombs]

Say what Willis ? This is NOT the only feed for the kitchen , it's only for 2 outlets nearest the sink There will probably be more like 4 or 5 circuits for the kitchen , when you include lighting and dedicated runs for the fridge , microwave etc . The bathroom lights have their own 15A breaker , as do the living room lights . The only thing this circuit will feed is one outlet , which will seldom be used . We don't primp ... nor do I shave .

[gfretwell]

There is no specified maximum number of receptacles in a residence. You just have a required amount of VA per square foot (3) and the receptacles are supposed to be "Evenly Proportioned Among Branch Circuits" (220.12) (210.11(B))

In commercial you are limited to 180 VA per duplex outlet. (220.14(I))

The requirements are for two 20 amp "small appliance" circuits in the kitchen serving the counter top, one 20a for the bathroom and one 20A for the laundry. You can put the fridge on one of the small appliance circuits or you can put in a dedicated 15a circuit. (210.52)

[John Grabowski]

*Gfretwell is correct. The code only permits the bathroom 20 amp circuit to feed the bathroom receptacle. It is permissible to feed multiple BATHROOM receptacles from the one 20 amp circuit. The kitchen is required to have two 20 amp circuits that only feed the kitchen and dining areas. Read articles 210.11(C) and 210.23(A) Exception in the National Electrical Code or check with your local inspector before you call for inspection.

John Grabowski

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[Terry Coombs]

Well , I don't know much about code as I don't work daily with wiring and sparktricity ... but I can kinda see it and I'll just use that circuit to power outlets in the master bath when I build it - it'll be on a common wall with this bathroom . It's pretty easy to use a GFCI outlet in the string and feed one more from it , which is probably what I'll do in the kitchen . I have that breaker from a previous wiring config here at the camper , it was in the temp power supply box .

Thanks for the info , you and gfretwell have helped me design the power system for the next phases of construction . Oh , and out here in the boonies we don't have inspections . All the more reason for me to ask questions and solicit information , I fershure don't want to burn the place down !

[bob haller]

you fail to realize that while someone, you or a future family could be getting ready for work in the bathroom while another family member is busy making breakfast. both going on at the same time can easily trip a single breaker:(

In bathroom, a curling iron and hairdryer are being used, while in the kitchen the coffe pot is doing its thing, the can opener is being used, etc etc etc...

now if you claim we dont live this way KNOW IN ADVANCE when you go to sell your home this code breaking idea will be caught by any decent home inspector...

so do it right, do it once, and forget about it.....

GFCIs arent expensive! I prefer the ones in the outlet rather than the breaker, easier to reset ....

if you are out of slots in your main panel add a sub panel or replace your main panel

[Terry Coombs]

Heh , the blow dryer is used here to fan the woodstove ... and I'm retired .

Just the 2 of us ... and if you catch my wife with a curling iron I want pictures , it'll be a first .

This home won't be sold , we plan on living out our allotted days here - might be a fight between the kids who gets it but by then we won't be here so ... and you'd be surprised at what will fly around here . We are so rural they have to pipe in daylight ...

That's the plan , and why I'm asking .

True , I've replaced a couple in the camper .

Brand new panel , new construction and I bought the biggest 200 amp box I could afford that has copper bus bars - has room for like 40 breakers if I use some slimline units . Should be enough for a 3 room shack . Oh , and I do have a sub panel for the shop fed from the main panel . When the dust settles and the wiring is in it's final configuration that sub will be fed from a 60 amp breaker . Right now we're still on the temp pole , awaiting the ground drying enough to get a truck in to move the service to the new location .

[gfretwell]

I am just telling you what the code says. If you want to ignore the code, I doubt there will be a SWAT team descending on you.

[RobertMacy]

FWIW. New construction here north of Phoenix, circa 2010

bathrooms have branch, but 'peel' off a GFCI outlet for plugs above sinks

kitchen is large and has rows of outlets ALL GFCI types, however... there is breaker to built-in uWave/oven, breaker to cooking top, breaker to fridge, breaker to dishwashwer, breaker to rows of outlets: there are outlets above island counter and outlets above kitchen counter lining the wall. all are GFCI type.

There are four outlets in the island counter with ONE controlling GFCI, the others 'daughter' off it. Above the main kitchen counters are two sets of GFCI controlled outlets. One set of three and one set of four outlets. Each set has main GFCI resettable, the others 'daughter' off them.

One breaker takes out ALL those GFCI outlets. AND the stove top exhaust fan. [Fom memory, but will double check that ALL the outlets go down with one breaker.]

Had to be to somebody's code, else how did pass inspection?

[gfretwell]

This is really not an issue about burning the house down. It will only cause nuisance tripping of breakers. (as long as you size the wire to the breaker). The issue is hair dryers and the appliances that get hot in the kitchen. They gobble up a 20a circuit pretty fast. Back in the olden days when the bathroom receptacles just ran electric razors, you could pretty much ignore that load. These days they sell hair dryers based on how much power they use. (even if it is usually a lie)

[gfretwell]

As long as each bathroom has a dedicated 20a circuit, it can handle all the loads in that bathroom.

I bet there are two 20a circuits feeding the kitchen counter top outlets (that can also feed the dining room, breakfast room and pantry). There may be an issue of how well they are distributed tho. .

[bob haller]

so whats your problem with a dedicated breaker for just the bath. ?? arent you planning on running a new romex, so why share the braker?

[trader_4]

Apparently he wanted to save using an additonal GFCI breaker. I don't get it either. I'd rather keep circuits somewhat separate and logically organized, even if it was allowed by code. Also, I agree with you that having the GFCI function in the outlet is preferred. If it trips, you can reset it without a trip to the breaker panel.

[John Grabowski]

*How about posting pictures of the job as it progresses so we can follow. Also, almost every lighting and receptacle circuit will require arc fault protection as per article 210.12(A). They will help reduce fires from loose connections.

[RobertMacy]

I remember the frustration when trying to buy a hair dryer. I asked 3 questions:

1. what is the exit air temperature?
2. what is the volumetric flow against, say, a 1 inch flat surface?
3. what is the dBA at my ears?

The answer I got was shown the label declaring 1500W hair dryer! and a blank stare.

As an attempt to make the salesperson understand, I pointed out that a light bulb could use 1500W and never dry one's hair.

PS: never found the answers from ANY manufacturer. You'd think one would want to dominate the market as THE expert.

[RobertMacy]

Might be two, but remember only one, haven't checked yet. no, the breaker is dedicated to just the kitchen, big [kitchen, not the breaker]. Breakfast nook adjacent and Dining room is about 100 feet away adjacent to drawing room and entrance areas, with two breakers to the dining room, probably for buffet heaters type stuff in butler's pantry.

[gfretwell]

Bear in mind this is the minimum requirement. Larger kitchens should have more circuits, as a design issue. I do find it interesting when people build huge 7 figure houses and cheap out on the things behind the wall. I have a tiny "one ass" kitchen and it has 3 small appliance circuits plus one for the fridge although I did cheat a little and left the hood on the fridge circuit. (that was existing when I renovated the room).

[DerbyDad03]

How many people ask those questions? If any given manufacturer made that information readily accessible do you really think their sales would sky rocket?

How much? What color? How does it feel in my hand?

That's probably all that the huge majority of people care about.