re: "You asked why it passed inspection and I answered"
Would care to point out in which post I asked why it passed
I've checked my previous posts and I can't seem to find that question
re: "Then what WAS your point ???"
What exactly is the thought process behind using 3 question marks when
typing a question? Is that the written equivalent of saying "So are ya
going to answer? Well, are ya? Huh? Are ya?
In any case, my point was that even though my house - being
grandfathered, just like yours - doesn't *require* GFCI's where they
would be in a newer house, everywhere the code would require one
today, you will find one.
re: The GFCI extension cord "...since you had that contraption
already out and in the way, what did you expect ???
There are those pesky questions marks again...maybe you need to get
your keyboard cleaned.
You know, I don't recall you being at any of those jobs sites so how
about you don't try to tell me what and why something happened?
Jesh , are you a natural born asshole or is that something you have to work
LOL..Seriously though.. you need to stay on your meds...You insinuated his
outlets weren't up to code by looking at his picture...I responded it was
grandfathered like mine are..I never said I was at your jobsite to look at
your ingenious invention , I just said at the jobsites I'm on I and others
hook up at the closest outlet which meant that it MIGHT not have anything to
do with your little contraption..Sorry if I hurt your feelings...Need a
A fine job at weasel wording your way out of all the errors in your
LOL.My errors ?.You crack me up...But thanks I guess...
Sometimes I don't know why I bother. I guess the part of me that
wants to help my fellow man just takes over.
re: "My errors ?"
First, thank you for the use of the single question mark. That alone
improves the readability of your posts immensely.
Now, to avoid wasting too much more of our time, I'll point out 1
error - which you corrected yourself - and leave the rest for you to
In an earlier post you said, "You asked why it passed inspection and I
When I requested that you show me where I asked that question, you
responded with, "You insinuated his outlets weren't up to code "
To "insinuate" is not to "ask". It would be hard to argue that you
didnt make an error when you said "You asked...".
So, as long as we agree that you were in error by making that
statement, it shouldn't be too hard for you to find the other errors
in the assumptions you made about my point. As I said, I'll leave that
up to you, because in the spirit of a.h.r, doing it yourself is a
great learning experience.
His outlets may have passed inspection when the wiring was
But he is now using the general purpose outlets in his
garage for a use which has different code requirements and
therefore needs to address this by running new circuits to
provide adequate facilities for the new use...
There are alarms that will sound/alert you when freezer temperatures
go above a temperature that you set. Set the freezer temperature for
25 - 30F and you will have some chance of saving everything in the
freezer. SImilar operation for the fridge except set the temp at 38 -
40F. Much cheaper and easier, and you only have a couple of 9 V
batteries to change every couple of years instead of throwing out a
lot of food.
email@example.com wrote the following:
Pulling a wire for another circuit would require too much de-construction.
The garage is at the end of the house and next to a foyer and family
room which is also on a slab, and above the garage and family room are
Though three rooms? From the breaker box (on the NW basement wall) up
through the living room wall to the lower attic rafters, 30' across the
lower attic rafters to the upper attic, across the 30' upper attic
rafters to the opposite end of the house (it is against the elect code
to tack exposed wire on the rafter ends, unless it is covered by
conduit, or by drilling wiring holes through the rafters), then down
through the bedroom wall, then the foyer wall below the BR, then through
the foyer wall to the garage.
"(it is against the elect code
to tack exposed wire on the rafter ends, unless it is covered by
conduit, or by drilling wiring holes through the rafters),
It is ??? Perhaps somebody will check on that cuz I see it in new
residential construction all the time here in Maine...Sounds like a pretty
clean run compared to some I've seen....LOL...
Why not fix the root cause of the problem and upgrade the circuit to
handle the max load or split the circuit, one for each appliance?
Even if I didn't have an overload situation, I don't think I'd want
multiple food storage appliances on one circuit. The loss potential is
far greater than if they were on separate circuits.
I don't know your house layout or panel capacity, but it seems to me
that pulling one more 15 or 20 amp circuit to the garage would be well
worth the effort.
I agree that the first thing I'd focus on is finding out what the root
cause of the tripping is. I would be very concerned about that if
it were my house. It coud be anything from an overload, to a bad
breaker, to an undetected short somewhere that could one day burn down
He could start by figuring out what the total load is on the
circuit. A Kill-a-Watt would be useful. If it turns out a freezer
is using a lot of energy, the best solution might be to get a new
one. A new fridge or freezer could use half the electricity of a 25
year old one, fix the tripping problem and pay for itself in a few
years. Also, if it trips from the starting current of the fridge,
one of the time delay breakers may solve the problem.
Should also check the wiring gauge and breaker size. There is
probably some small chance that it has 12gauge with a 15amp breaker.
If it's all 12 he could go to a 20 amp.
I'd also get GFCIs on the outlets that make sense, eg the outdoor
Another possibility might be to move just one of the outlets used for
the fridge to another circuit. For example, if there is another
circuit used in the house that happens to be nearby on the other side
of a wall, easily accessible in an attic, etc, that might not be that
hard to do.
On Feb 4, 8:29 am, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Ummm... NOOOO.... He can't... If the circuit is running to the
end of the house from the circuit breaker panel, then #12 wire is
for a 15amp circuit instead of the normal #14 wire because of the
the circuit... To do what you suggest would require that the circuit
question be wired with #10 size wire...
Again... NOOOO... Refrigerators are required to have their own
dedicated branch circuit because they are high load appliances...
Circuit breakers stop current when an overload is detected, but GFCIs
stop current when an imbalance of current is detected, indicating
leakage of some current to ground. GFCIs are never current overload
protectors, but there are combination breaker-GFCI devices that fit in
breaker boxes. If your circuit breaker is tripping, then either it's
bad or you have a serious problem with one of the devices on the
circuit or in the wiring itself (short between neutral and hot or
between hot and neutral). But if your GFCI is tripping, the problem
could be electrical noise from a motor, which a hash filter (low pass
filter - this is not the same as a surge protector) may eliminate, or
you have a slight short in your wiring. GFCIs are designed to
minimize false tripping through a time delay that varies with the
amount of leakage current detected, from about 10 seconds for less
than 0.01A of leakage to 40 milliseconds for leakage in excess of
0.1A, but some are more sensitive to line noise than others,
especially older designs.
Wow... Sounds like a fire waiting to happen... Refrigerators are
code to have their own circuit... How large is the chest freezer ???
one should also have its own circuit...
The fact that everything in your garage is fed on one circuit and dies
both the refrigerator and chest freezer both try to kick on at the
is ridiculous... I bet you have blown this by triggering the garage
door a time
or two also...
Even if there was such a thing as an outlet with a built in circuit
would not protect the wiring between the garage and the main breaker
in the basement from frying even if each outlet was only trying to
draw 15 amps
and not tripping its own breaker...
Think outside the box here Bill... If it would be such giant pain in
the ass to
run the additional circuits INSIDE the house, why not run them in a
conduit OUTSIDE along the perimeter of your foundation in a trench...
out of the basement with an LB fitting pointing down towards the
a trench from that spot all the way around the OUTSIDE perimeter of
below the frost line in an area where it won't be disturbed by digging
in your planting
beds or gardens in the future to the outside wall of the garage and
install an LB fitting
to bring it inside the garage...
The materials will cost a bit more than pulling romex wiring inside
but it will be a lot less of a pain in the ass in a much more easily
Running a conduit would also allow you to install more than one
circuit which would
solve your problems permanently...
Wrong, at least in the USA, unless local authorities have adopted
regulations that exceed the NEC. And even if code did require it
today, he has an existing garage which isn't required to be brought up
to current code .
Even a large chest freezer doesn't pull that many amps, especially new
ones which are high efficiency. It could be a good idea to have one
on a seperate circuit to reduce trips from other loads ruining the
Or he could find out what the total loads are on the circuit now with
a simple kill-a-watt meter. Then decide if
a - the loads are not the problem and there is a possible short
b - one of the freezers is using 2X what a new one would. In that
case the simple solution is to get a new freezer, which will pay for
itself in energy savings and reduce the load.
c - possibly move some loads from this circuit to a nearby circuit
that is not as fully loaded. This could possibly be done with minimal
d - run an additional circuit for the freezer/fridges
On Feb 20, 7:35 am, email@example.com wrote:
You are correct in that it is not an NEC requirement for such a
circuit, but it is in my state and we don't run into these issues
that additional requirement...
There is nothing in the electrical code to prevent someone from using
COMMON SENSE and installing facilities which will PREVENT PROBLEMS
which are MORE than the minimum standards for safety which the code
You are incorrect that "an existing garage isn't required to be
up to code" because when you change the use of a receptacle from
"general purpose" to something specific like a major appliance, you
have now changed how that circuit is being used and you need to
upgrade your facilities to accommodate that change in use...
It is not the constant operating load which causes the problems, it is
heavy amperage pull when refrigeration equipment starts up which makes
things go wonky...
ROFL... Yes, the loads are a problem, given the length of the circuit
run involved, a #14 wire under a full 15amp load running the full
of your house will cause the breaker to trip... You need to use the
larger size of wire for longer runs to prevent this problem...
Right, until some part within the refrigerator or new chest freezer
wears out and that new freezer begins to draw twice the load on
that circuit also... Then you are right back where you started from
and you have spent the money on a new fridge/freezer that you
should have spent running new circuits to feed the old one which
was still perfectly fine...
Umm... No... That is NOT a good idea because you will be putting
that much more load on another circuit which might not have the
available capacity to support that additional load...
This is the correct choice, as it solves the presenting problem
without screwing around and creating new problems on another
Since I don't have a copy of the current edition NEC book available to
me, I will raise my specific concerns about the scenario which I know
are addressed in the code someplace... I'll leave it up to you to
them up since you are the one who wants the code cites...
What is the square footage of the garage ??? General purpose power
requirements for such a space based on its size alone won't support
or account for the use of major appliances like a refrigerator or
as a "general purpose"... Then factor in that his outside receptacle
garage door opener are both powered by that circuit as well, it is my
understanding that once he does any sort of work on that existing
circuit ALL of it would have to comply with the current edition of the
NEC in effect, wouldn't he have to divide off that outside receptacle
garage door opener to separate circuits anyways because its code to
have a dedicated circuit not used by anything else for outside
which don't power anything inside the house ??? SAME issue for
garage door openers... Aren't those code issues that would need to
be addressed if ANY modifications to the current circuit were made
without consideration to the OP's issue with overloading the
Given the load of the refrigerator AND the freezer AND the garage door
opener AND the outside receptacle AND anything else he uses inside
the garage (his air compressor for example) that sounds like it adds
up to more than 1,440 watts which is 80% of the 1,800 watt maximum
which a 15amp circuit can provide... Unless the code has radically
changed in the past three editions, it sounds like the circuit should
left alone because changing it in any way would require several
upgrades and changes to bring it into compliance with current codes...
It would be the most cost effective to run a new dedicated 20 amp
appliance circuit for the refrigerator and chest freezer, as that
solution to the problem removes from consideration any code issues
with the uses the circuit currently feeds...
Right, except in this case, it seems as if too much is being fed from
the circuit in question so that those short starting currents are
happening at the same time too frequently... Therefore while the
actual running load on the circuit may be within acceptable limits,
the circuit is overloaded because of several appliances cycling on
and off and therefore the circuit is not adequate anymore for the
purposes it is being used for...
You don't either, but it has been stated in other posts in this thread
that it is at the opposite end of the house from the main breaker
and that it would require extensive routing to pull a new cable to
area from inside the house... One can deduce from that information
that this circuit is among the longer, if not the longest run in the
and it is being used at or near full capacity... That information
into selection of the wire size being used to power that circuit...
Yup... A defective defrost coil or one that goes bad will cause the
refrigerator to suddenly use twice as much electricity in the period
from when it goes bad until the time refrigerator itself eventually
And YES, it will fail if you do not become aware of this problem and
repair it, as the compressor has to work harder to provide the same
amount of cooling as it was before and it will wear out much faster...
I guess the NEC doesn't give you much useful information about
appliance diagnosis or repair...
Ah, but that would bring that circuit that you are intending to tap
to shed some of the load off the overtaxed garage to split loads off
onto into play as "being worked on" and now in the scope of
new work... So current NEC load calculations, square footages of the
space(s) it is serving and many other code items would now come
into consideration when making any new alterations on those
That is why someone who knows what they are doing and isn't merely
concerned with what bare minimum they can get by with doing under the
code would bring a new circuit to feed the two high consumption
loads in the garage to permanently solve the problem and not fix it
some other change in the way the house is used in the future
(i.e. rearranging the furniture in the living/family room where you
the circuit to feed the refrigerator in the garage and have an
home entertainment system now running off that circuit as well) causes
issues which must be identified and dealt with at that later time...
If adding another circuit was off the OP's radar then he would not
gone into detail of describing his potential plans for routing another
branch circuit wire to the garage from inside the house...
What is cost effective is that which solves the problem in the longest
term without creating new issues in the future... If the OP followed
advice about splitting the load onto an existing nearby circuit and
circuit was in a bedroom or family/living room with expensive
being fed from it the fluctuations in power from the normal cycling
of the refrigerator and chest freezer can cause expensive damage to
television sets and computers... Knowing this, why would you offer
advice on fixing the OP's immediate problem which could damage his
expensive home electronics later on if they end up getting plugged
into the wrong circuit because it is shared with a high current
refrigeration appliance ???
So regurgitating the NEC at me/the others in this thread in no way
abates good thoughtful advice which exceeds the minimum requirements
in the code when a bit of common sense is taken into account for the
new ways in which the formerly general purpose receptacles in the
are now being used for...
You miss the point rather badly in two respects:
First, you're the one who made the claim that this is required by Code, so
it's up to you to back it up -- not up to him to show that you're wrong.
Second, how do you propose that he prove something is *not* in the Code?
To illustrate the point, I assert that the requirement you claim exists is
in fact not in the Code, and here's my proof:
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