Frost Proof Sillcock Froze and Split

[trader4]

That is because none is required. I've seen some cases where they have installed a shut-off, but never a drain. The shut-off apparently is so that if you want to turn it off so that no one can turn it on from outside, eg when you're away, you can do so. I wouldn't bother. If I'm going away for an extended period, I just turn the main water valve off to prevent any accidental water even anywhere in the house.

Apparently they know how to put in the freeze-proof sillcock, because they did it correctly from what has been described here.

What exactly is the purpose of putting in a drain that no one is ever going to use? The freezing section of the valve assembly drains itself, unless you install it incorrectly, tilted inward. Your additional drain valve would drain a couple inches of pipe between the drain valve and the valve at the end of the FP sillcock, which is inside, where it can't freeze. Good grief.

And of course such a drain would serve no purpose.

[trader4]

I didn't see the show, but I tend to agree. It would have to be installed with a good bit of backward tilt for it not to drain enough to prevent it from freezing and bursting the pipe. Never seen that. But like you say, I have seen them freeze from leaving a hose full of water attached. You don't even need to remove the hose, just take the nozzle off and make sure the rest of the hose is a couple feet lower than the sillcock. It's when you leave it connected, full of water, with no place for the water to drain that it then freezes.

In my case it didn't split, - it just pulled the

[nestork]

Trader:

Lemme explain:

What I'm saying is that if a person is installing a frost proof outdoor hydrant, it's a good idea to put a ball valve with drain a foot or two upstream of the outdoor hydrant.

The drain on the ball valve should be on the downstream end of the ball valve and the ball valve should be installed horizontally with the drain at the BOTTOM of the ball valve.

That way, it doesn't matter which way your piping slopes. If your piping slopes the wrong way after you're done, you can:

1. Close the ball valve,
2. Open the outdoor hydrant, and
3. Drain all the water out of the piping by using the drain on the ball valve.

And, that way you get an extra 12 to 24 inches of frost protection absolutely free.

It's a good idea to have a shut off valve upstream of the frost proof hydrant anyway so that you can service the hydrant without shutting off the water to any more of the house than the hydrant.

However, for the few cents more that it costs to buy a shut off valve with a drain, you get that extra 12 to 24 inches of frost protection, which in my view, is money well spent. If you have a particularily cold winter, you can open the drain on the ball valve and be confident that no matter how cold it gets, there won't be any cracked piping.

[trader4]

Around here a hydrant is what dogs piss on.

Let me get this straight. While putting in a freeze-proof sillcock, instead of just making sure it's horizontal or slightly sloping outward, you should instead screw up the install, let it slope the wrong way, but put in an extra valve with drain so that you can then drain it? Good grief!

The whole point of the freeze-proof sill c*ck is that it's long enough so that it won't freeze. They come in various lenths, up to at least 24" so that the valve section is inside WHERE IT CAN"T FREEZE. You can leave it on all year and you don't have to fiddle around turning off the sillcock and draining it. What idiot would put one in and then a use another valve with drain to turn it off and drain it?

It's a sillcock. The hydrant is what dogs piss on. And if you need to service it, how about if you need to service the extra valve you just put in, the drain that starts leaking over time, etc?

A valve with drain is just a few cents?

you get that extra 12 to 24 inches of frost protection,

If the frost proof sillcock is installed correctly, it won't freeze. If you install it half-assed, then you shouldn't be installing one. And if you're going to put a valve and drain the pipe manually, then why on earth would you put in a freeze-proof one to begin with?

[TimR]

A hose full of water will split the faucet?

Didn't know that.

Why wouldn't the flexible hose just give with the expanding water?

[Stormin Mormon]

The water remaining in the "tube" part of the faucet expands, and splits the tube.

[dennisgauge]

No vacuum.

You're thinking of that straw trick where you dip the straw in the soda, put your finger over the end, and the soda doesn't run out.

That only works if the tube is VERTICAL.

Try it horizontal some time. The liquid runs right out.

The air would come in through the end of the sillcock.

[krw]

A drip shouldn't cause any problems. A hose left connected *will*. At least the hose burst first. :-)

[DerbyDad03]

Huh? No water available for months? How hard is it to open the inside valve when you want water?

[bob haller]

wierd report. I am 56 have lived in pittsburgh my entire life do nothing to outdoor valves and have never had one freeze or split or whatever. normally theres a hose always attached. during these years we have had sub zero temperatures

[Vic Smith]

Depends on plumbing setup I suspect. If enough heat gets conducted through the pipe from the run inside a heated space, it won't freeze. I'm a bit north of Chicago and always shut my inside valves and open the outside to drain the pipe runs when temps get close to freezing. Might not be necessary, since the inside piping is in a heated basement. There's also some water flow turbulence at the inside hose bib run Tee. All the house water supply flows past that. But it's been standard practice for me since I can remember. Two reasons I guess. Why take a chance, and it's part of the fall and spring rituals. Goes along with putting away the lawn stuff and getting the snow shovels from the garage rafters in the fall, and the opposite in the spring.

[trader4]

That depends on where the shut-off is located. Even if it's in an accessible place in the basement, it usually involves getting a ladder or large stool to stand on to reach the valve. Then you have to remember to repeat the process and turn it off. Not something I'd want to do when the freeze-proof sill c*ck avoids it all. If it's behind a washing machine, above a finished basement ceiling, etc, then it could be a bigger pain.

[DerbyDad03]

Your post reminds me of what I call "panic prose", the type of wording you hear in many infomercials.

You know, watching the nice lady fight with the totally tangled garden hose, getting all frustrated, while the voice-over says "No more wrestling with heavy, tangled hoses that will kink and split and completely ruin your life and the life of your kids." Then there?s the guy that shoves the Q-Tip half way into his brain while the voice-over warns of punctured eardrums.

"...it usually involves a ladder or a large stool..."

Obviously, we would need to poll numerous households to find out where their shutoffs are located to see if you use of the word "usually" fits.

All I can relate is that in my case, the shut offs for all three of my spigots are easily accessible with no climbing apparatus required. The same holds for the shut offs at my dad's house and my sister's house. I do indeed close my shutoffs in the winter and, at least so,far, I don't have any problem remembering to close them again if I open them in the winter.

Regardless of the accessibility of the shutoffs, or the inconvenience of their use, to claim that using a shutoff means "no water available outside for months" is, as I'm sure you know, complete BS.

[Stormin Mormon]

I think it's a lot based on personal experience. When I was a kid, the shut offs for the half bath were waaaay up there, over a cellar sink. It was a real challenge to get at them. OTOH, some shut offs are almost as convenient as the device being controlled.

Do I get the free potato dicer thrown in, if I get the ladder and the shut off, both?

[trader4]

There is no water available unless you go through whatever it takes to turn the water back on, so it's not "regardless of the accessibility or the inconvenience". I think everyone here,except you, understood that. If you want to screw around with shutoff valves, drains, etc instead of using a freeze-proof sillcock and then shut them off in fall, turn them back on in spring, go turn them back on if you want some outside water several times in January, be my guest. IDK about you and where your shutoff valve is located, but my sillcock comes in the basement straight through the wall. You can't reach the plumbing without a ladder. And that assumes you haven't finished off the basement, have shelves or something in the way, etc. I've seen lots of new construction and they are all done that way. They use freeze-proof sillcocks, for obvious reaonson, but if they didn't where they come in is *not* reachable without a ladder or similar.

Maybe you should team up with Nestork, who thinks installing a freeze-proof sillcock half-assed, slanting backwards, followed by a valve and drain is a cool idea.

The simple fact is, freeze-proof sillcocks are widely used, they work and they have major advantages to the manual shutoff approach from 50 years ago. They are installed in most new construction here. I've had them for 30 years and they work. The only time I had one fail is when I left a hose connected and forgot about it. I would not go back to the inferior, manual system.

[trader4]

You mean it's outside at the sillcock, when you're attaching a hose to wash off something in Jan? If I have to go inside, down into the basement, which is very typical, twice, even if you don't need a ladder to stand on, which I would, to me, that isn't "almost as convenient". With a FP sillcock, you connect the hose and turn it on just like you do in July.

[DerbyDad03]

My only issue is with your wording, not with your or anyone else's thoughts related to drains, etc. I agree that a drain is unnecessary, so I don't have to team up with nestork or anyone else. I also have no issues or questions related to the quality of freeze-proof sillcocks, their use, their advantages, etc.

The only issue I had was with your words "no water available outside for months". That is what I refer to as "panic prose", meaning words that are used to intimate that the only possible outcome is the worst possible outcome.

Come on, trader...aren't you one of the members of this ng that parses posts and reminds people of what they said? You specifically said "no water available outside for months". Period. Now look back...that is the one and only thing I questioned.

It now appears that you have amended that and added "unless you go through whatever it takes to turn the water back on". That is vastly different than simply saying "no water available outside for months". While a freeze-proof sillcock is certainly more convenient than an internal shutoff, the claim that an internal shutoff results in "no water available outside for months" is simply not true.

[trader4]

So, if I said that after I winterize my lawn sprinkler system, I can't water the lawn for months, that's BS too, right? Because technically I can go turn it back on again, then reverse the whole process. Or once I cover and wrap up a boat for the winter, I can't say that I can no longer get stuff out of it, because if I *really* wanted to, I could go unwrap the thing to go get the wrench I left in the cabin. I'll make sure to keep all possibilities in mind in the future for the pendatic among us.

[DerbyDad03]

Yes.

Right.

Correct.

...or you could simply not equate the opening of a shutoff with flushing and refilling a sprinkler system or unwrapping and rewrapping a boat.

I'm pretty sure you can see the difference.

[clare]

And remember to close it again inside, drain it, and leave the outside tap open when you are finished - - - - - -