ESA-SAFE inspection

[clare]

Just had an ESA-SAFE inspection on my 40 year old house so I can change insurance providers The Ontario Electrical Safety Authority does the inspection (at a cost of almost $400 canadian) and it is a pretty extensive inspection. The house passed with flying colours, condition-wise - but to pass I need to GFI protect 2 counter-top "splits", 2 bathroom outlets, and 2 outdoor outlets that also need to have "in-use" weatherproof housings installed.

The kitchen "splits" mean 2 Square D QO 215GFI breakers. The outdoors will be pretty simple - just a simple pigtail to new GFI outlets. The bathrooms are a bit more fun as the outlets are in ganged boxes with a switch, and both have 1 12/3 and 2 12/2 cables coming into the boxes, with 4 #12 conductors in one wire nut - on both line and neutral.

The existing nuts are not AL approved, so need to be replaced. I wanted to use Alumiconns - but they are not available up here (although they ARE approved). The other decent alternative is the Marrette ACS65 wire nut. So far none of my local electrical wholesalers have the 65s in stock - only the too-small 63s

I have a few more to check tomorrow - How do the "real" electricians do this kind of job when their suppliers don't carry the required materials????

Do they "fudge" it like the original electrician (when AL specific stuff didn't exist) and hope the inspector doesn't see it, or split the connection into 3 and fill the box with smaller connections?????

Finding electrical components up here is starting to remind me of Zambia and Burkina Faso - to get 5 parts you need to hit 10 suppliers

- on a GOOD day.

[Don Y]

Don't you also have to protect the garage? Laundry area? (or were these already covered)

[gfretwell]

Someone like dale-electric.com should be able to help you. Several years ago I had to order some strange size metric bolts from Germany. 12mmx250mm stainless

[clare]

The only things flagged were the outlets with 1.5 meters of the sinks

- kitchen and baths - and outdoors under 2.5 meters above finished grade. I don't have to bring it up to current code (thank goodness)

Up here in Ontario carports need to be GFI'd, but not attached garages. My basement , including the laundry, is totally finished. If the basement was not finished I might need to protect more.

The one outdoor and the downstairs "powder room" are on the same circuit so a GFI breaker would work EXCEPT the fridge is on the same circuit. Can't GFI the fridge. Best way would be to run a separate circuit for the fridge - but that is a LOT of work, what with the garage at the opposite side of the house, the panel at the far end of the garage, and everything finished. I'd need to run the wire up and over the garage (means adding an attic access in the garage, then dropping the wire to the basement and across to below the fridge, then up the wall. If we ever redo the kitchen again, that would be in the cards - but that won't be happening for the forseable future since we did a complete reno about 15 years ago - and it is still in excellent condition.

[clare]

Oh, I can get the Aluniconns from the states - about $3 US each in quantity 25 - with another $40 in shipping and another $30 in brokerage fees. That adds up pretty quickly - $145 US = about $193 - about $7.75 Canadian each.

The ACS are not available in the USA but should be here in Canada - just have to find a supplier that stocks them- if not locally at least in their central warehouse. Lots of 63s around, but the 65s are conspicuous by their absence!!!

[John G]

Don't they allow WHOLE HOuSE GFI in Canada?

In AUS whole house including the fridge is allowable and mine was built into the house when it was built in the mid 1980s, hence any additions within the load limits are automaticly protected.

[gfretwell]

All of these connectors are scary expensive, no matter where you are. I assume you are paying some lawyer tax in there,. I am curious why shipping would be so much. The last time I sent a box to Canada it was not really that expensive and the tariff should not be much. We would be buying an Ideal #65 if you want a wire nut (probably the same thing) The 65s are really a toss up. U/L and CSA lists them but the US CSPC says they will burn your house down. Home inspectors hate them. OTOH there are millions of houses wired with aluminum here in the late

60s/early 70s that never burned down. I used to have one and my ex is still there. It used regular devices and wire nuts. (not CO/AL-r) Workmanship seems to be the biggest factor. You could be a lot sloppier with copper and get away with it. I believe if you twisted up the CU/AL joints tight, put on a little dab of goo and screwed on a live spring wire nut (like the 3M) it would last until the next millennium but I can't say it out loud.

[gfretwell]

The RCD is a 30ma device. US and I assume Canada requires 5ma protection.

[John G]

I believe you are correct but in 13 years my Whole house RCD has tripped on a few valid faults but never missed one. (Rain water in a power strip etc).

[Don Y]

This place is ~35+ and the outdoor, bathroom and garage requirements were in place. Originally, the two outdoor, one garage and one per bathroom outlets were all on a single GFCI-protected circuit.

Interesting. Here, a garage is GFCI'd regardless of attached or carport. In a carport, you might also have to add protection from "water splashes" (rainfall)

You can't get *into* the space above the garage?

Be thankful you have attic/basement! Here, most folks put EMT on the exterior of the house -- up to the roof, and over. Looks like total crap.

(Then, of course, you've got the DIYers who just run Romex without the EMT! :-/ )

[DerbyDad03]

I wonder if there is US based participant of this group that knows what you need, knows where to get it and knows the most cost effective way to ship it to Canada.

Take this off-group, transfer funds via paypal and Bob's your uncle.

[clare]

No such thing as whole house GFI in Canada or the USA. Whole houe SURGE PRITECTORS exist, and my house is equipped with one.

[clare]

The differenmce between the ideal and the Thomas $ Betts (Marrette) ACXS65 iand the ideal is the ECS is phenolic instead of the ideals thermoplastic - which is highly flammable on it's own and is then LOADED with a petroleum based asnti-oxidant.

My house is 43 years old, with "regular" wire nuts too - never a problem - but I need an inspection - and I need it to pass, and if I disturb the connection at all I need to have the proper connectors to pass. I found a distributor locally with the ACS65s in stock - but had to buy a box of 100 for $65.00

I agree with you 100%

[clare]

Not without cutting a hole in the seiling or the roof.

Really abvious to an inspector driving by - - - -

[Don Y]

Interesting. I've never encountered a place that didn't have

*every* attic space accessible (e.g., places where the attic space above one "wing" wasn't connected to the space above another) -- usually through panels hidden in closets.

This is The West -- where the Men are Men (and the sheep are all scared!)

[Tekkie®]

[e-mail] posted for all of us...

Call the companies up and ask for the jobbers and dealers or ask for samples. They may just send them through the mail. I had a company do that to me. In fact I got a bag of 25 of each of the connectors I inquired about. I still have 80% left because the sparkys around here use what they have always used and they ain't changin' now. The ones I have will not work for you. Do you have Scotchlocks available?

Get in touch with John Grabowski or Greg Fretwell they know the scoop and will help. I like to volunteer people...

[clare]

This is a 2 story house with the garage on the main floor, and 2 rooflines. Second story roof over house only. First floor roof over garage, which sticks out about 4 feet from the rest of the main floor along with the Foyer, and over the front porch, full length of the house The "attic" of the garage dead-heads against the wall of the second story of the house in the staircase, with a small window at the end of the hall, at the top of the stairs, looking out over the garage roof.

[clare]

Scotchloks are not approved for aluminum up here. The ireal twisties are, but I won't use them.

I ended up finding a box of the ACS65s at Westburne this morning. Smallest box? 100. Cost? ^$59.71 plus GST - total $67.48 I won't be running out of them for a while!!! A friend is going to have to do the same thing on his house, so he'll make use of a few,

[Don Y]

A place I had in Colorado was "4 levels" -- with separate "attics" above each of them (except the lowest which sat under the "third" level).

E.g., the attic above the bedrooms (topmost/fourth level) was in no way connected (nor "connectable") to the attic above the living/dining/kitchen areas (the "third" level). That, in turn, was not connected (connectable) to the attic above the family room and office (second level).

Likewise, my childhood home had the attached garage offset (set back 15 ft) from the main house -- so the "side door" was closer to the street than the garage's opening (yet one continuous structure). The attic above the house was entered via a staircase off the kitchen. At the top of that stair, you could look out a vent and see the roof of the garage beneath you. I.e., the ridge line of the house and garage were not aligned. But, you had to enter the garage to enter *its* attic (through an opening in the ceiling).

The same is true of most homes, here: garage has an access point and the other attics have one or more access points depending on how many "wings" turn off of the main structure.

[TimR]

I wasn't familiar with Alumiconns until you mentioned them. They look really secure, much like the chocolate blocks we used in Europe where wire nuts are prohibited. So thanks.

Is there something similar for copper?