Electrical Short...

w_tom has reached a new level of silliness. When a manufacturer puts surge protecting components inside say a DVD player, it's a great thing. Not only will it protect the electronics from a surge, it will do so despite the fact that the only ground it has is the same ground a plug in protector would have. And it's perfectly safe to sit the DVD player in a bedroom without fear that's it's gonna burn the house down.

But install the same surge components into a power strip and it's a death trap unacceptable for a living space. No, wait, not the same components. BIGGER components, able to handle an even bigger surge. It's gonna spew fire and also won't protect at all against a surge because it's impossible to do surge protection without a true nearby earth ground. Funny if their so unsafe, they are UL listed, ain't it?

Sure there have been problems with some surge protectors. There have been problems and safety recalls with some cars too, haven't there? Should we stop buying them too?

Reply to
trader4
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To quote w_: "It is an old political trick. When facts cannot be challenged technically, then attack the messenger." My only association with surge protectors is I have some. And I don't recommend people use plug-in suppressors. I only recommend people make decisions based on facts, not lies and junk science.

A lie w_ keeps repeating. With no technical arguments against plug-in protectors all he has left is the lie. Provide a link that says UL-1449-2ed is a problem.

Another version of the ?undersized? red herring. Suppressors are readily available with very high ratings.

A repetition of the ?really stupid statement?. Plug-in suppressors have MOVs from H-N, H-G, N?G. Which surge mode does that not cover? Never explained by w_ (because there is no explanation).

This is the *real* issue for w_. He believes you cannot suppress surges without a short wire to earth. But the IEEE guide to surges and surge suppression at:

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that plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at the suppressor, not earthing. The guide says earth grounding occurs elsewhere. The IEEE is the major association of electrical engineers in the US and publishes standards on surges. But poor w_ can?t find anyone who agrees with him. So he lies with pathetic scare tactics. And sets up a straw man, a ?grossly undersized? suppressor, when suppressors with high ratings are readily available.

The IEEE guide above (the link originally came from w_) has excellent information. And it says plug-in suppressors are effective. In the only

2 examples of surge suppression, plug-in suppressors are used. I guess the IEEE doesn?t know about the ?sparks and flames?.

Another excellent guide on surges and protection is from the National Institute of Standards and Technology at:

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also says plug-in suppressors are effective.

So believe the IEEE, NIST and hanford.

Or believe the lies and junk science from w_. He has no links that support his beliefs.

-- bud--

Reply to
Bud--

Did trader assume that MOVs are inside appliances? MOVs - that one type of surge component - once was inside appliances such as Apple II. No longer. MOVs inside appliances or inside power strip protectors were not effective. Anything that a power strip protector might accomplish is already inside appliances. And its not MOVs as trader has assumed.

For example, integrated circuits are now defined to withstand 2000 and 15,000 volts without damage. That is IEC6100-4-2 and other standards. Internal protection is constructed in three layers - system, board, and inside each semiconductor. Protection that is already inside electronic appliances is understood by those who work with things beyond an electrician's grasp. Internal protection that naysayers often do not even know exists.

w_tom provided numerous sources of facts. But even sources cited by bud demonstrate same. Bud would have everyone believe his magic plug- in protector works even without earthing. Bud would have everyone believe IEEE, et al recommend plug-in protectors. Wrong. IEEE makes recommendations in standards - not in papers. Many IEEE Standards each define one thing essential for protection: earthing. Not a protector. Earthing.

Bud's own citation (Page 42 Figure 8) shows TVs being damaged - 8000 volts destructively - because a protector was too close to appliances and too far from earthing.

What does a protector do? Earth. A protector with a short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth provides a non-destructive surge path. Even 1752 lightning rods did same for Ben Franklin. But a protector too far from earth ground and too close to TVs .... that is Page 42 Figure 8 in Bud's citation - TVs destroyed.

All electronic appliances contain internal protection. MOVs once were inside appliances - too close to transistors and too far from earth ground. No longer installed - and trader should have known that. Even before PC existed, industry standards have defined protection inside electronic appliances. Trader should have also known that fact.

Effective surge protection earths a typically destructive surge so that 8000 volts does not pass through TVs - page 42 figure 8. How well does a protector 'handle' a surge? Well how long is that earthing wire? Sharp bends inside junction boxes? Bundled with other wires? More than 10 feet? Factors that make a plug-in protector NOT earthed. One protector, properly earthed, means massively improved protection for tens of times less money. Without MOVs inside appliances.

Now w> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor

Bud also posts that protectors clamp - but do not earth? Earthing is defined as necessary by his own citations. A protector is not protection. A protector is nothing more than a connecting device to protection. An effective protector 'shunts' a surge to protection. What is the protection? Earth ground.

Effective protectors shunt (clamp, connect, divert) to earth ground long before that surge can get anywhere near to appliances (ie the TV). How to make that protector better? Enhance the protection - the earthing system. Even Bud's citations note that - in direct contradition to what Bud has posted. Earth so that protection already inside all appliances is not overwhelmed.

trader apparently has confused standard protection inside all appliances with MOVs. One 'whole house' protector properly earthed means protection inside all electronics appliances need not be overwhelmed. As Bud's Page 42 Figure 8 demonstrates - a protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground may '8000 volts' overwhelm and destroy internal appliance protection.

Superior and effectively earthed protection for about $1 per protected appliance. Installed so that protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed. trader - did you know of IEC6100 and other standards that define. for example, 2000 and 15,000 volt internal protection - and without MOVs? It's not something taught to electricians.

Reply to
w_tom

Never seen - a source that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. Or that UL-1449-2ed is a problem.

With a minimal ability to read anyone, except apparently w_, can look at the IEEE guide, pdf page 4 and find that the guide was peer-reviewed in the IEEE and represents the views of the IEEE. But w_ has a religious belief (immune from challenge) that surge protection must use earthing. w_ must deny what is obvious to protect his belief in earthing.

[The illustration, from the IEEE guide, shows a surge on a CATV cable and 2 TVs, TV1 has a plug-in suppressor.] The new lie. The ?protector? does not cause any damage. The ?protector? protects TV1. The ?protector? reduces the surge at the TV2 from 10,000V to 8,000V. With minimal reading ability anyone, almost, can read the text - "to protect TV2, a second multiport protector located at TV2 is required". The IEEE guide says plug?in suppressors are effective. But w_ must discredit the guide (as above) and distort the guide (here) to protect his religious belief in earthing.

The religious belief in earthing #2. But the IEEE guide, as stated numerous times, explains plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping the voltage on all wires (power and signal) to the common ground at the suppressor, not earthing. The IEEE guide says earth grounding occurs elsewhere.

The new lie repeated.

The new lie #3.

Challenged by many people. Lowes online has no ?whole house? protectors. Home Depot has no ?whole house protectors near $50. Yet another of w_?s ?facts? which he can provide no link to substantiate.

The religious belief in earthing #3.

What does the NIST guide actually say about plug?in suppressors? They are "the easiest solution".

and: "Q - Will a surge protector installed at the service entrance be sufficient for the whole house? A - There are two answers to than question: Yes for one-link appliances, No for two-link appliances [equipment connected to power AND phone or CATV or....]. Since most homes today have some kind of two-link appliances, the prudent answer to the question would be NO - but that does not mean that a surge protector installed at the service entrance is useless."

Again w_ must distort what a guide actually says to protect his religious belief in earthing.

The religious belief in earthing #4. I only repeat what the IEEE guide says - plug-in suppressors work primarily by clamping, not earthing.

The new lie #4.

Want to know if plug?in suppressors work? Read the IEEE and/or NIST guides. Both guides say plug-in suppressors are effective.

Then read w_?s sources: Never a link that says plug-in suppressors are NOT effective. Never a link that says UL-1449-2ed is a problem. Never a link to a $50 ?whole house? suppressor. All you get is w_'s beliefs.

Bizarre claim - plug-in surge suppressors don't work No sources. Distort or attempt to discredit opposing sources. Attempt to discredit opponents. w_ is a purveyor of junk science.

-- bud--

Reply to
Bud--

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