Electrical service - 240v line

[G Henslee]

Now, now. We should all remain neutral about this.

[Joseph Meehan]

Frankly most dictionaries don't list technical definitions. The generic electrical definition for neutral is not the same as used in home wiring.

I like that one.

[G Henslee]

Afterall, it's not as important an issue as say... top posting vs. bottom posting.

[Doug Miller]

Geez, there you go again, wrong as usual - you got it exactly backward.

No more so than your statement above.

[Doug Miller]

*You* wrote that most 240V circuits *do* have neutrals, and 120V circuits *don't*.

So who's the "dumb POS" ?

[PaPaPeng]

I know what I am doing but may not have described it in a way that makes it easy to understand. If it doesn't make sense to any reader then don't do it. All I have done is to point out that it can be done and I have done it with perfect safety. If the OP is that ignorant about DIY wiring I did give a source (sewing machine dealership) where he can buy a step up transformer that is ready to plug in and use. The transformer cost me something like $20 back then and its a lot cheaper than a 240V breaker and the cost of wiring that.

[Ignoramus9053]

A step up transformer would be fine, provided that the appliance in question requires relatively little power.

i

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Good for you. I know a guy that does heart surgery too, but I'm not about to try it myself and he does not tell people how to do it either. .

If they work so well, you'd see them all over the pace instead of dedicated circuits for table saws with 3 HP motors, you'd see them on clothing dryers, etc. You have no idea what the OP is using the circuit for so don't recommend a solution that may not be at all possible, cold even be a danger..

[RP]

Moron.

hvacrmedic

[William.Deans]

Greetings PaPaPeng,

Your posting expressed good creative thinking which may well have lead the original poster (if he is ambitious) on the road to a viable solution. Although the poster probably couldn't install a 240V outlet safely or to code based on your posting alone and many details were omitted, it was the best one at the time. You filled in a few blanks where you didn't have enough information but I don't think you should be strung up for that.

Keep at it, William

[PaPaPeng]

The one I am recommending has a 200 watt capacity and therefore suitable for most household appliances but not a rice cooker.

[PaPaPeng]

The OP has practically no idea of how to get a 240V outlet and probably wants to DIY for a small appliances. I get questions like this from a lot of oriental immigrants who value their TV sets, expensive home entertainment equipment, rice cooker, kitchen appliances etc. that they ship over with their possesssions. The TV and VCR are tossers as they are PAL standard, unless all he wants is to view HK soap operas on tape. Don't laugh. They do exactly that.

Lets put it this way. A guy thinking of using a 240V supply for a welder or a table saw knows enough about tools, machines and technology to have a pretty good idea of what is needed or knows where to look it up. If he doesn't the machines will maim or kill him long before he gets zapped by a electrical outlet.

[RP]

Did it occur to you that you could have just asked him? Now having said that, I'm going to agree that you can assemble a 240 circuit as you described, but it'll only be rated for the same 20 amps as the original

120V circuits. But you'll need to abandon the single pole breakers that these were on and install a two pole breaker. This will work, but it's stupid as hell, because you've now got two hot legs running different paths through the attic or whatever. I don't know if this is legal or not, but it is required that both conductors be run through the same conduit or raceway, when the conductors run through these, but I'm not sure whether this applies to romex runs. OTOH, lighting circuits can be split into different romex runs, so I doubt there would be any more safety issues with your method than with these, legal or not.

Now I'll show you a better way: Take the white wire from your 120 volt receptacle and wrap it with black electrical tape, or paint it black. It is now a legal hot conductor, and you can pull it loose from the neutral buss and insert it into the other pole of your two pole breaker. We're assuming that this was a dedicated and isolated circuit to begin with. You now have converted a single 120 circuit into a 240 circuit, and you can leave the other circuit going to your duplex as 120V. You can buy duplex receptacles in which one is configured for 240 and the other 120. Or, even better, you can use any 120 receptacle at all that has only one circuit running to it to form your 240V circuit.

Now if, OTOH, this isn't a light duty application, but is going to be used for a range, water heater, dryer, welder, pool pump, well pump, etc., then all bets are off.

If anyone has some NEC code to add to the above then by all means let's get it clarified.

hvacrmedic

[PaPaPeng]

Thanks for the vote.

I could have made things a lot easier this way.

Hey guys. Go to your kitchen duplex outlet with a multimeter set to measure VAC. Measure across the top and bottom small slots on the right hand side. It should read 240 Vac thereabouts. Measure across the top and bottom larger slots on the left hand side. It should read

0 Vac.

Replace that duplex with a 240 V type receptacle that won't allow a

115V plug to be plugged in. The wires to the right hand side of the duplex receptacle should both be black. Use only these two black wires to connect to the 240 V receptacle. The left hand side wires should be white. Snip off the bare ends or tape them up. They are not used. These white wires should not have any bare ends to cause a short circuit. The ground wire goes to ground. Now you have a 240 Vac outlet rated for 15 amps.

[Joseph Meehan]

Which may be protected by two independent breakers, meaning one side may stay hot when the other has been tripped which is a really big NO NO.

[Doug Miller]

Excuse me? What 240V 200W household appliances would those be?

[Doug Miller]

Not in most installations in the United States, it won't. You'll see ZERO.

[Doug Miller]

This is dangerous, illegal, and there's a 50% probability that it won't work.

Code requires that all conductors for a given circuit must run in the same raceway or cable. You've just built a 240V circuit - maybe - from two conductors that run in different cables.

The probability is exactly 50% that any two random 120V circuits will be on the *same* leg of the 240V service. Thus, there's a 50% probability that there is ZERO potential between the two hot wires, and the outlet won't work at all.

If there are any outlets downstream of this one, congratulations, Ace - you just disconnected their neutrals.

The only positive thing I can find here is that kitchen outlets (in the US, at least) are very UNlikely to be wired as you describe, and thus it will be impossible - thank God - to implement your absurd advice.

[Rick]

Yes, and when you DO see 240 volts, in most cases there would be a red wire...

I don't know why he thinks all receptacles are split wired

[PaPaPeng]

The knick knacks people (many immigrants) bring over such as cake mixers, juicers, entertainment systems (TVs, VCRs, stereo equipment) , electronic toys, stuff that make them groan when they see that they could have bought the same at WalMart for peanuts. If you have grown up in North America you won't encounter them. You'd have bought stuff that you can plug into your household receptacles and not worry about its voltage compatibility. If you need 240 V for some application you will normally know what you are doing and won't be asking for how to hook up a 240 V service on this newsgroup.