Electric vs propane

[Ed Pawlowski]

What are you paying? Our rate is 19 cents making it much more than other forms of heat.

[HerHusband]

We're currently paying 8 cents per kilowatt.

Anthony Watson

[HerHusband]

I am certainly no expert on efficiency, but agree it is inefficient to generate electricity from fossil fuels.

On the other hand, power plants are more likely to make upgrades to improve efficiency than millions of homeowners who have old inefficient furnaces (oil, coal, whatever).

Since electricity is 100% efficient, any upgrade the power plant makes immediately applies to all of it's customers (not factoring in inefficiencies in the power grid).

Electricity is expensive in most parts of the country because it is generated with fossil fuels. As direct renewable sources (wind power, solar power, hydropower, gothermal, wave generators, etc.) continue to make up more of the total energy package, it should balance out with the price of other fuel sources.

An electric ground source heat pump is probably the most efficient heat source with the lowest operating costs. It's the installation costs that make it unattractive. :)

Anthony Watson

[trader4]

Generator

[trader4]

You'd have to have one hell of an inefficient old furnace to make it more expensive to heat with nat gas or oil than electric in most places. Burning a fossil fuel for heat and capturing most of that heat is easy. Heat is created and it's the heat that you want. Burning a fuel, converting it to steam, generating electricity, boosting it up in voltage, transmitting it hundreds of miles, stepping it down, etc., a lot of what was once heat energy is lost. You wind up with less than 50% efficiency.

But the power plant and the grid are inefficient, less than half the energy of the fuel source going into the power plant makes it to the user.

They don't generate it with what is expensive, they generate it with what is cheapest, available and works.

As direct renewable sources (wind power, solar

So far solar, wind, etc has only driven up the cost of energy, not lowered it. Here in the Peoples Republic of NJ we're paying a surtax on all electric bills to help pay for the rich to put up solar panels that are still economically unviable. Hydro is great, but there are few place left that haven't been tapped.

It can't compete with natural gas for heating here in NJ, even on an operating basis.

[Stormin Mormon]

In NYS, most parts of the state, electric is far more expensive.

[Stormin Mormon]

I've not checked my bill in a while, but last I looked it was more like 11 cents plus all the various fees. That was a while ago. Much more now, I'm sure.

[Stormin Mormon]

Expand.

[Stormin Mormon]

From what I can figure, every time you change energy form, you lose a lot. From coal, burn to make steam, to turn a turbine, to push a coil to make electric, to transmit that through wires. It's all wasteful.

OTOH, frack the NG, pump it through a pipe in the ground and burn it in your furnace.

[trader4]

Exactly. I just ran my numbers through the calculator that Ed supplied the link to.

Here in NJ, electricity would have to be less than 4c Kwh to just *equal* the cost of heating with natural gas. So not only is resistance electric heat out, but even if you have a geo heat pump with a COP of 4.5, you'd be at about the same cost of using nat gas. Then factor in the huge cost difference of the two systems and it's a big losing proposition. Plus, I can run a gas furnace off a small generator in a power outage. The HP would require a much larger one.

[Stormin Mormon]

Nice thing about propane, it's onsite. So when the grid goes down, one can still run the gas range.

[trader4]

Another observaton from a major disaster, Sandy here at the NJ shore. I had nat gas the whole time, no electric for a week. From what I could see, most areas had nat gas the whole time. The places that didn't were very close to the shore, where they shut off the gas because houses were being ripped away or so substantially damaged that meter pipes were being broken, etc. So, they shut if off for those areas. But those areas, for the most part, were so badly hit that there was a mandatory evacuation and people were not allowed to return to their houses for days to a week and even then, only to retrieve belongings during the day. The houses typically had 3 or 4 ft of water go through them. So, the lack of gas at that point didn't make much difference. Even if you had it, you couldn't live there. Some of those places didn't have nat gas restored for months, but it took that long in most cases to make them habitable again.

[HerHusband]

Like I said, I am no expert. You're obviously more knowledgeable on the subject than I am. I've used gas and electric and just prefer electric. Of course, I can say that because I live in a region where electric rates are rather affordable. I would still pay a little more to use electricity, but that's just a personal choice, not something based on scientific fact.

I will say that regardless of the source, the best thing you can do is minimize your energy needs. Smaller house, better insulation, efficient appliances, etc. All things being equal, it's going to cost more to heat a

4000 sq/ft McMansion than my little 1500 sq/ft house.

If you don't mind sharing, I'm curious what others are paying for their monthly energy needs. I honestly don't know if we use more or less than the average american. We're all electric, and pay about $130 a month (8 cents per KW). We average around 35 KW/day in the summer and 75-80 KW/Day in the winter. If you heat with fossil fuels, you would need to add up the fuel and electric costs to compare.

Heating obviously makes up half of our bill in the winter, and hot water heating makes up a good percentage of the remainder.

Anthony Watson

[trader4]

3100 sq ft house here in NJ. Bill for the month that just ended, which was a lot colder than normal, probably at least 5 nights in the single digits, lots of nights in the teens or low 20s, $178. If I had used electricity, at 17c kwh, it would have cost 4.4X that. Of that $178, gas for the water heater is about $17, that's what it runs in summer. Bills prior to that were $148 and $158.

[Stormin Mormon]

I had all electric shop one time. The power bill nearly bankrupted me, and that was with me living in one room and freezing.

[Bill]

G e n e r a t o r ?

[Stormin Mormon]

Best giggle I've had in a while. Thank you.

[Stormin Mormon]

Thanks for expanding a bit, on that. Helps to reassure me that I'm making at least one decision correctly.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Ah, that makes a huge difference. If your heating cost with electric was more than double what it is now you may have a different approach. In my case, I'd be near double the present cost with electric over oil.

[JAS]

One that will run 4 hair dryers? The gasoline to run it coast what?