Electric code

[Ralph Mowery]

I called a company about replacing an electric water heater. The one already in the house (about 15 or more years old) does not have an electrical disconnect near it. They said they would have to send out a licened electrician to install one as that is the code now.

Is it true they have to install the disconnect near the heater on a replacement ? Could be a local code, but I doubt it.

I knew I was being ripped off when they wanted $ 1700 to replace the water heater. They cut it to $ 1300 when I balked at the price. Said instead of a 6 year warrenty it would be cut to 2 years at the lower price.

A heater should be around $ 500 or less at the local Lowes store. I would think that even at $ 100 an hour they should be able to put it in for $ 1000 allowing for all kinds of markups.

I did get a local plummer and he told me the labor he charged was $ 100 an hour which seems reasonable to me. Just talking to him on the phone he said probably around $ 800 to $ 900. Which seem sfair to me.

I could put it in , but where it is at is a pain to deal with and I hate plumming.

[Ed Pawlowski]

Best answered by your local inspector. Often old code is good, some places would want it updated to present code.

The places that take out full page ads in Yellow Pages or slick TV ads will try to do anything to bump the price. They also want to avoid any potential liability later.

I can understand the reason for a disconnect, but not having one will not burn your house down.

[Buck]

Yah, your water heater is out and they think they got you by the balls. Maybe try a HVAC shop, they tend to be slow this time of year.

[Ralph Mowery]

I know the reason. Everything has gone way up on safety. It is there so the person doing the work can see that no one turns on the power while it is not safe to do so. There is no requirement for breakers or fuses, just an off/on switch.

Speaking of bumping up the price, they wanted $ 1700 to replace a water heater. I am not sure if that included the electrician or not. It would take about 30 minutes or less to install a $ 20 switch.

I worked in a very large plant for 39 years. For a number of years there was very little thought given to safety . In the last 10 years it was way over board. Such as if we were working on something and our feet were over 4 feet off the floor we had to have on a full safety harness. That included step ladders. Some scaffules were the same way unless they had rails around them in a certain way and what is caled toe boards all the way around the bottom.

In the electrical department where I worked they had us wearing special over coats and helments with full face shields. The coats were marked

40cal. That was an arc flash rating. When I retired it was all I could do not to bring my 40 caliber gun in and shoot it full of holes. The company did provide each of us our own coat.

[Ralph Mowery]

I am lucky. I am not sure about what is going on with my water heater. A few days ago the water had gotten very hot, over 140 deg by a meat thermometer in the hot water stream.

As far as I know there are 2 things that can cause that, Bad /stuck thermostat or one of the elements has burst and as only one leg of the

240 volts is broken electricity flows from that broken element through the water and heats it up. I did not do a very good check,but did check the current with a clamp on amp meter ( I have all kinds of electrical instruments at home) and there was not any flowing with the thermostat in the set point off position. I just checked the top element to see if it was stuck and it was not. Did not check the bottom element as it was not drawing current at that time either.

For now the water seems to be normal again. It could be the bottom thermostat is stuck and a high temperature shutoff activated for that element. However as it is over 15 years old I am not going to worry about a failuer cause and am going to replace it. Just me and the wife here and both being retired can get by for a while.

[trader_4]

I believe the answer is that if it's within sight of the breaker panel, then that can serve as the disconnect. Otherwise you need either a disconnect that's visible from the heater or a lockable disconnect or panel. It's all BS of course, because even if there is provision for a lock, almost no one is ever going to use it on a home water heater when working on it.

When my water heater went, I bought one for ~$400 at HD and rented their truck to bring it home. I was surprised how light they are, I got it home and down to the basement myself. That was gas and I think they may cost a bit more now because of new safety features to prevent them from blowing up your house if you pour gasoline all over the basement.

[trader_4]

I should probably amend what I posted. That's definitely true for a new installation, not sure about a replacement. The best way to know the answer to that would be to call up your local code dept and ask. If needed, you could put a disconnect in yourself to save the electrician cost. A pull out disconnect, no switch is probably the lowest cost way to go. It's better than a switch, because whoever is doing the work can take the thing with them, preventing anyone from turning it back on, even without a lock. If the WH needs a permit and it needs the disconnect, then you're looking at two permits and inspections. Or DIY or with a buddy. Ypu could DIY for the disconnect on the existing one and when they come to quote the water heater, it will already be there too.

Why you need a disconnect on a water heater, but not AFAIK on direct wired ovens, cook tops, or a dishwasher, IDK. IDK

[Ralph Mowery]

I had thought about putting in a disconnect myself if needed. In NC you do not usually need a permit or inspection to do your own small electrical work.

The independent plummer I talked to said I did not need one if I had a 3 wire 240 volt wire. If only 2 wires and no ground , a new wire would have tobe pulled. That is the 2 hot wires and a bare or green ground wire. I checked and I have that.

I don't think I need a permit or inspection just to replace what is already here. I understand in some states you can't hardly change a light bulb without a licened electrician or permit.

I really think the reason for many inspections is so they can make sure to get on the tax records.

[Home Guy]

8 or 9 hours for labor to swap an electric water heater?

Does that come with KY jelly?

I replaced my gas water heater about 10 years ago. Bought the replacement from Home Depot for about $400. I think it's 50 or 60 gallon. Disconnected the old one, lifted it out of the basement up the stairs, bought the new one at HD, put it on a cart and did all the lifting from the store to my pickup to home and down into the basement.

The gas supply lined right up with the old one - didn't need to rejig or re-plumb the supply line.

I replaced the cold water intake valve and added a hot water shut off valve.

[trader_4]

That sounds possible for a DIY, with trips back to HD to pick up the fittings you didn't know you needed, stopping at the gogo bar for some beers, etc. For a plumber, I agree, it's nuts, unless you're going from say a gas one that used a chimney to a power vent one and electric has to be run, exhaust has to be run outside, etc. Even then it shouldn't be that many hours. Just doing an electric swap should be maybe two hours on site, three tops. You could help by draining the old one before they get there.

Yes, same here. Like I said I was surprised how light it was. I slid it down the stairs and I think I had someone help me some later day to get the old one up the stairs.

[gfretwell]

I agree with you. 422.30 certainly makes it sound like a wall mounted oven or hard wired cook top should have a disconnect unless there is a locking device on the breaker but I don't see it done. Ranges are typically cord and plug connected and as long as you can reach that plug without pulling out the range by "removing a drawer" it is legal. The unit switch on the dishwasher is probably the disconnect if it has an "off" position. Water heaters are dealt with because it is likely the plumber will be doing the entire replacement and if there is a disconnect there, he can work safely without really knowing much about electricity. Most AHJs will require a permit for a water heater replacement and they will want to see the disconnect there if the panel is not within sight. There has been an argument about whether one of those mechanical Intermatic timers is a disconnect but since the "on" tripper overrides the manual "Off" lever most AHJ's say no.

[trader_4]

So, to clarify for Ralph, most places the disconnect reqt would apply to a water heater replacement too, not just new installs?

[Clare Snyder]

Here a good 40 gallon (50 gallon US) gas heater is just shy of $900. An electric is about $600 with 9 year warranty.

If I have to replace my gas heater, as long as I buy the same model it is less than a half hour to change it - not counting hauling the old one out and the new one in. No soldering required. And none of that hokey flex line crap.

Replacing an electric is about the same - and adding a "disconnect" if required might add 20 minutes - not counting the 5 minute drive to Home Despot or the localhardware store to pick it up.

It almost takes longer to get a water heater out of it's box than it does to install it.

Now, if you are replacing with a different brand and the connections don't line up - - - - - - well it can turn into an all day job in a hurry - - - - - - .

[Clare Snyder]

SNIPP

Furnaces and water heaters and air conditioners require a disconnect device within sight of the device - both electric and fuel, by the way, for heaters and furnaces - - - On a power vent gas water heater the plug-in connection counts as the disconnect - and in SOME places a "dedicated" twist lock outlet for the furnace is also allowed in place of a switch

[Ralph Mowery]

No, that $ 800 to $ 900 was for a waterheater parts to pipe it in and labor. That was without him seeing the job. He said it may take an hour or so to drain the old heater. If I had it drained it would be less.

The big brand name company wanted 1700 to start with and when Ai balked they cut it to 1300. Should have a 55 gallon drum of ky with that.

[Ralph Mowery]

Yes, that is the question. I know around here if you replace some things like a stove that has a 3 prong plug you can put it back that way,but all new ones or if you move the receptical it has to go back with a 4 prong plug.

Many new instalations require some sort of disconnect or plug with in sight of the device.

[gfretwell]

Yes, since you are already into the wiring, adding a disconnect at this point is basically just buying the disconnect and maybe some wire. They will also make you get rid of the Romex whip if that is what was there. They will want FMC or MC and they might even be OK with Smurf.

[gfretwell]

I understand there are places that are ignoring the 110.3 violation and allow cord and plug connection of fossil fuel appliances just because of the generator thing.

[Cindy Hamilton]

We did similar when our water heater went. It was a bitch getting the old one up the stairs, because we have no floor drain and couldn't get the last of the water out. IIRC the effort involved making a go-devil and the use of a block and tackle and come-along.

Cindy Hamilton

[Bod F]

Sawzall FTW!