I think progress was made today with the realization that FF is probably the Chase Test SAE J866a friction designation for the OEM shoes.
My focus on specifications may be bullshit, I agree, as it's a matter of trust in the specification for the SAE J866a Chaste Test results.
Your focus on a billion web sites all accurately portraying "meets OEM quality" is also subject to trust.
A web site may make all sorts of claims (say, for Axxis "performance" pads), while another web site sells the base pads (say, for PBR "economy" pads) where the numbers printed on the pads can tell me that they're the exact same pad because marketing can say almost anything they want as long as the pads fit.
Luckily, the numbers tell us if they're the same pads, or not: AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011
That's great but you saw the mention that EE brake pads are only marginally better than no brake pad at all.
You have a friction coefficient at a variety of temperatures of somewhere between 0.25u to 0.35u, which is a wide range.
I personally have chided *anyone* who uses EE pads, especially those who did it without knowing that they were EE pads, becaues I would use FF pads which have a measurably higher friction coefficient of somewhere between
0.35u to 0.45u, which itself is a huge range.I agree with you, as always, since I've *seen* rotors worn to their ribs, and the cars were still being driven on the road.
All I'm saying, and all I ever said, was that I have never put EE pads or shoes on any vehicle and I hope that I never will.
FF is fine for me as long as that meets OEM specs.
We're talking about the SAE J688a Chase Test whose results are printed on
*every* brake pad and shoe sold in the USA. This information has been around for many years. Here is the PDF from 2011 for example:I'm sorry if my adult conversation with you has offended you. We don't disagree on the technology.
We simply disagree on the level of trust.
For example, you trust EE pads far more than I do (and that's fine). You also trust that every web site accurately portrays "meets OEM specs" far more than I do, and that's fine.
Apparently you don't trust the SAE J866a Chase Test results, which are printed on every brake pad and shoe - where I do.
We don't disagree in concept - we merely have different trust levels in different sets of data.
I agree with that that what really matters is real-world experience, where, you'll note, this report looks at EE and FF pads in Police Cruisers in depth:
Actually, I do. If we trust in the SAE J8866 Chase Test results, we do know a *lot* about the friction at various temperatures. And, if we match the entire code, we know *who* actually manufactured the pads/shoes (e.g., we'd know that some are just rebranded versions of others).
So, it seems you may be under estimating the huge amount of knowledge there is in the direct result of SAE J866a tests printed on every brake pad and shoe sold in the USA today.
We can tell if two pads from two different brands are the same pad, and we can tell who actually makes every pad sold in the USA today.
It's all here, all 176 pages of it:
I'm far younger than you are and not as experienced as you are. I don't have any experience with drum brakes. Like many here, I have an engineering degree but it's not in this field.
Brands are a marketing gimmick. The 176 page document proves that.
I apologize that you feel I don't comprehend your statements. I think we have a difference in trust. You don't trust SAE J866a Chase Test results; I do. You trust marketing branding; I don't.
It's not a matter of comprehension - but a matter of levels of trust.
VW was making cars for a long time, but they screwed the consumer. Apple is an extremely trustworthy brand, but they screwed the consumer. Wells Fargo is a great brand, but they were fabricating accounts.
What do you have against me being able to read the numbers on a brake shoe to tell if two brake shoes are either identical in all ways, or if they are made by the same (or different) manufacturer?
Why would you hate me having that information?
I'm sorry if you think that being able to read the numbers printed on a brake shoe in order to tell if that shoe is identical to another shoe or made by the same company makes me a paranoid idiot.
I'm sorry if knowing the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient of a friction material makes me a paranoid idiot.
There's nothing I can say to you if you think that, which will change your mind. We must just disagree.
You seem to think information about friction for friction materials is bad. I seem to think it's a fundamental first order data for any friction pad.
We will just have to disagree.
I'm sorry you think I'm paranoid for wanting to know what the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient is for the OEM shoes and for the shoes that I put on the vehicle.
One thing that this "paranoia" will get me, and that's the fact that I hope to *never* put on any vehicle the same pads you put on yours, since EE pads are, as you know, only marginally better in friction than no pads at all.
Well - we do *agree* on one thing! :)
See! There *is* common ground between us!
Actually, at $157 a set, I can't ask the owner to pay that much for an SAE J866a Chase Test FF shoe when I may be able to get an SAE J866a Chase Test FF shoe from the *same* manufacturer for around 20 or 30 bucks.
It's all in the branding that the 176-page PDF decodes for us.
I'm younger than you, so I don't know all those clever repartee's yet.
Agreed. But you don't have any proof, do you, that the SAE J866a Chase Test is being abused?
Even if it was abused, the standards require all pads to state their actual company of origin no matter what brand.
Why do you hate me having this information of who actually made the shoe?
Just a moment ago you repeatedly claimed I was paranoid. Now you claim that the SAE J866a standards as reported in this 176-page PDF are all faked?
AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011
Where's your shred of proof?
Why don't you trust that the number on pad 1, if it's the same as the number on pad 2, even if the brand is completely different, is the same pad?
I'll open a separate discussion for the police report, as you bring up some very good points when you assert the EE pads outperformed the FF pads.