Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

[Mad Roger]

I have since found out that you are correct and I was wrong. Reversing won't work to adjust the drums. The parking brake lever ratchets the adjustment. My bad.

[Mad Roger]

Thanks for the advice, which is much appreciated.

I don't think I said I was done with my homework - just that I was asking out of due diligence - where I have plenty more homework to do, as you are astutely noting.

I haven't watched this whole video yet - it's an hour long - but it should be able to give me all the physical steps necessary to replace the brakes.

Drum Brake Shoe Replacement, Timmy The Toolman

The Toyota threads I've found insist on Toyota OEM shoes, but do say the rest of the hardware can be gotten elsewhere.

The cylinders don't appear to be shot, but 20 years is a long time so they probably will fare with a rebuild.

The Toyota folks say get the "u clip" which has to be bent, and which comes standard with a factory OEM kit but might not come with the NAPA kit. We don't have NAPA anywhere nearby, but we have other brands like Autozone, and O'Reillys and Petboys.

In the OP you see me measuring the internal diameter of the drums, which have a limit of 297mm, but it's only 295 mm so we should be ok. Are you intimating that the 2mm isn't enough of a safety zone?

I think 2mm should be enough. It would be fine on a rotor.

[Mad Roger]

When I googled, that's one of the methods I found people use, although most seem to replace them, one shoe at a time (because they remarked they'd try the full-removal method next time).

This guy did the full removal, but he completely skipped the removal steps:

Thanks for that advice.

I wasn't thinking cylinders, but I'm fine with rebuilding them. I've rebuilt master cylinders in the past where it's easy to rebuild a cylinder with the right parts.

[Steve W.]

Wheel cylinder is bad as well. The rear shoe show virtually no wear, that indicates the wheel cylinder isn't doing it's job.

That also says the rear shoe is stuck.

No, there is a leading shoe and a trailing shoe.

On most you just make sure it is fully released. Then you install the new parts and adjust the base brakes so the drum just turns free. Then you adjust the E-Brake so it applies after the number of clicks or distance specified in the book.

[Clare Snyder]

Don't know about the USA but almost impossible to source the rubber parts kits here in Canada - and cyls are stupidly cheap compared to what they used to be. (labor to rebuild costs as much as a cyl if you are paying to have it done)

[Mad Roger]

I'd agree with you given that the rear shoe, after 175K miles, still looks perfect, while the front is worn - but all the Toyota threads seem to say that is the way Toyota rear shoes wear.

They give this as the explanation:

Thanks. That explains why I've never heard of "rotating" brake shoes! :)

Thanks. I found a good hour-long video specifically for the Toyota.

[Mad Roger]

At a hundred bucks each, I wouldn't call cylinders "stupidly cheap".

Called the local Toyota dealer, who said the cylinders are $102 each, and the brake shoes are $157 for a set of four, so that's about $400 with tax.

Toyota doesn't sell a rebuild/repair kit for the rear brake cylinders.

I'll look around for better parts although I need to know the friction ratings to compare shoes apples to apples.

[Tekkie®]

Mad Roger posted for all of us...

I didn't look at any of the pix. It should be ok if not scored or bell mouthed or other problems.

[Mad Roger]

The drums are perfectly fine in that they have 2mm to spare even after 175K miles on the original drums.

As you're probably aware, scoring has to be huge to fail a rotor or drum (really huge when you look at the specs, it's amazing how huge).

The shoes are $157 for a set, and the cylinders are $102 each at Toyota.

I'm going to look for a rebuild kit because these cylinders are in great shape from the looks of it (and I already rebuilt the brake master cylinder which was also in great shape).

[The Real Bev]

Several ~1/4" x 1/4" plus a number of smaller ones before I noticed any problem except screeching. Ultimately I had to replace the rotors ($10/each) when the hogging-in started. It's interesting to know that the pad backing plates are this sturdy!

Jesus, that's kind of scary. For that big an investment you (or at least *I*) might as well pay somebody else to do the work. FWIW I was always happy with Pep Boys 'lifetime' parts. That was before most stuff came from China, though.

If only there had been digital cameras to permanently record how those nasty drum springs were arranged last time I did it -- I am guaranteed to reassemble everything in every possible wrong way before finally getting it right :-(

[AMuzi]

You might want a second opinion on those parts prices:

Then again, you might not.

[Mad Roger]

Wow. What a difference in prices from the Toyota dealer! It's not half, it's not a third, or a fifth - it's one tenth the price!

The only thing I need now is to know the OEM shoe friction ratings.

I'd be perfectly happy with just-as-good friction pads as OEM at those RockAuto prices of basically $12 per "something".

I guess I need to call RockAuto in the morning at 1-608-661-1376 (Wisconsin time zone) to figure out two critical things:

1. How many shoes come for (one?, two? four?)
2. What's the cold/hot friction rating?

It's shocking that Toyota didn't know the friction rating, and RockAuto doesn't know the friction rating based on their web page (admittedly good prices).

The friction rating is the *most* important thing about a brake shoe - nothing else even matters if they are a worse friction rating than what you want.

And yet, the RockAuto page lists shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe after shoe (Centric, Bosch, Wagner, ACDelco, RayBestos, PowerStop, Monroe, BeckArnley, Bendix, etc.) and not one of them specifies the most important thing about a brake shoe!

WTF? It's impossible to buy brake pads or shoes without knowing the friction rating. Who on earth can possibly compare two brake shoes without that critical information?

It's not like a brake shoe has any other major job but friction.

The higher the number the stronger the friction (SAE J866a): E = 0.25-0.35 F = 0.35-0.45 G = 0.45-0.55 H = 0.55-0.65

Given RockAuto and Toyota don't seem to tell people the pad's friction rating, I have to wonder ... do people really buy friction materials knowing nothing about their cold & hot friction coefficients?

[Clare Snyder]

I have 358000km on the original rear brakes on my Ranger - and the shoes had over half lining left when I last checked them about 15000km ago. I've had the new shoes for 5 years, and the original owner had them for 4 years before he sold me the truck - - -

Actually it does not take a LOT of scoring to fail a drum - requiring it to be turned. Then there are two different "fail" measurements - there is a max wear and a max turn. If it is worn past a certain limit it must be replaced, and there is a limit you can turn it to - usually

2 different measurements.

I believe thre are quality aftermarket sources at a fair bit less.

[Clare Snyder]

You do not need to know the ratings - just buy "oem replacement" - they WILL be the right stuff. (there are cheaper qualities available - usually sold as "economy") Premium shoes and oem replacement will both be VERY close toidentical. In almost 50yuears as a mechanic Inever once had to "match" friction materials for "stock" brake replacement.

[Clare Snyder]

You do NOT need to know the ratings. Buy their OEM quality shoes and the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede OEM spec - which is all you need or want.

They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen shoes sold individually.

You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.

That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know the rating.

If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.

They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric, Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe - and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself - but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.

Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track" thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better shoes.

[Mad Roger]

I respectfully disagree with you - but I agree with you that if you buy from someone you *trust* (e.g., the dealership or your best friend who works at an auto parts store), then you don't need to worry about friction ratings because *they* worry about the friction rating for you.

But let's face it. A brake shoe has one and only one primary job. And that's friction.

If the friction rating of the shoe is, say, EF, and you buy FF, you're fine, but if you buy EE, then you're getting a shoe that has lower friction coefficients than the OEM manufacturer stated.

Now, *after* you get the right friction rating, there's more to the story (e.g., dust, noise, warranty, price, etc.), but if you don't know the OEM friction rating, then it's impossible to correctly buy brake shoes.

You can get *lucky*. But you are just guessing.

We're both saying the same thing, which is that the friction rating (which, by law, is printed on *every* USA pad) will meet or exceed the OEM spec if you buy from a reliable source who would, we hope, refuse to sell you a brake pad *lower* than the OEM spec.

Let's hope that's the case for mom and pop - but for me - I trust in the friction rating, since it's printed on *every* shoe, it isn't hard to find (if the shoe is in your hands).

I did some more homework by calling the local parts stores (I had called the dealer first) who tell me that they sell them for less than twenty bucks for a set of four.

The wheel cylinders are cheap also, at about 16 bucks per cylinder and at about 7 bucks for the repair kit so I'll get a couple of those too.

Let's just respectfully disagree on whether I should match or exceed the friction rating of the OEM brake shoe.

In all my years with disc brakes, I've never bought a pad without knowing the friction rating ahead of time (usually FF or GG - but mostly FF) and I would never put on a pad that doesn't meet or exceed the OEM friction rating.

I agree that if I buy Toyota shoes from the Toyota dealership, that the friction rating will be correct as it will be the OEM friction rating, whatever that is.

So if I buy from the dealer, I don't need to know anything because I would be trusting the dealer to give me the correct shoes.

If I buy from Rock Auto, then I have to make the choice based on the friction rating first and foremost.

It's not like friction isn't an important thing for a brake shoe.

That is true. If that is true that is true. It's not always true even if they say it's true. I'll trust the two letters printed on the shoe itself.

You seem to be cognizant of "branding" (e.g., AT&T is just a brand name, it's no longer the same company as it was). Brands have value, but you know, from oil filters and batteries and tires, etc., that they brand all sorts of shit just to get more money for the same thing.

Oil filters are notorious for that. You have to dig deeply to figure out who *really* makes that oil filter and what it looks like inside (e.g., paper backflow valves, glued pleats, rubber versus paper stops, etc.).

Branding is bullshit for the most part.

What I care about are friction ratings.

After that, I care about stuff that I will never get the truth on, such as dusting, and noise, but that's just a fact of life that you can't get that information except from enthusiasts (e.g., Jurid FF pads dust like crazy but PBR FF pads don't ... go figure).

The *first* spec on friction material is *always* friction.

After that, you generally don't get the truth even though plenty of other stuff matters - but the friction rating is *printed* on ever shoe so it's unconscionable not to take it into account when purchasing shoes.

Otherwise you're just guessing.

I've seen people put Wagner EE pads on a car spec'd for FF OEM pads, and they didn't even know it.

They showed a picture of the pads and I had to tell them that the pads didn't even meet OEM specs.

The sad thing is that they could have had Textar or Axxis pads for about the same price that were FF or even GG.

I'll repeat that the PRIMARY job of friction material is friction. Hence the friction coefficient is printed on all USA pads and shoes.

There's a *reason* for that. You can certainly *trust* to luck - but I prefer to read the shoe. :)

[Mad Roger]

I don't disagree with your experience now that I've done some homework. It's amazing how *long* brake shoes last, at least on the rear.

I suspect I'd get double the mileage that I saw if the Toyota brakes would only wear evenly. Most people on the Toyota forums get more than 175K miles but this truck was driven in very hilly country for more than a decade.

The problem here is that *none* of us are referencing an actual manufacturer's specification.

I looked up the specs for a scored rotor when I had a Lexus LS 400 in the early nineties where I was shocked at the spec. As I recall, it was thicker than a dime, and maybe even a dime and a half as I recall, for it to fail the rotor.

I didn't look up drums at the time (it had disc brakes all around), but I think we're all talking out of our asses (me included!) unless and until we dig up a real spec from the manufacturer.

It's usually *hard* to find the scoring spec; it's a lot easier to find the thickness and runout specs, so I'm not saying it's an easy spec to find.

I agree.

The RockAuto site someone quoted had an axle for a lot less than twenty bucks, so Toyota is about ten times aftermarket.

I called the local parts store and they have FF friction-rated shoes (I asked them to read me what it says on the shoe) for $17 per axle.

At that price, it's not worth shopping around by price - but only for the friction rating.

I haven't found the friction rating for the OEM shoes yet, so it's impossible to buy shoes without that information. When I call for the friction rating I get tons of bullshit about the pad material where it's meaningless without the friction rating.

I mean, a brake pad has a primary job, and that's not dust or noise but friction. First comes friction. Then we can talk about dust or noise or warranty.

But friction comes first. Without the right friction rating, it's worthless.

[Mad Roger]

I think we actually agree in that I completly agree with you that if the friction rating of the pads I get is equal to the OEM spec, then I am where I want to be.

I also agree that we can *trust* the guy who sells me the friction material that he wouldn't sell me a friction material that didn't meet OEM spec.

It's sort of like when buying tires, Costco won't sell you an S rated tire if the original tires that came on the vehicle are an H rated tire. They don't want to sell you anything less than OEM.

I get all that. So I agree with you.

However ... I like to know my ingredients, so to speak.

SO I like to know what the friction rating is for the OEM pads/shoes, and for the pads/shoes that I buy.

You really can't fault me for wanting that information. It's just like reading the ingredients on a label where the ingredients are required to be listed in order by law.

Same with the friction ratings.

[Clare Snyder]

It's been over a decade, so I don't remember ther exact specs, but I did government safwety checks as well as servicing LOTS of vehicles (including 4runners and Land Cruisers) and gouges in both rotors and drums do not have to be terribly deep or wide to mandate resurfacing/replacement.

not hard at all. here's one:

and another:

see page 402 at :

"If scoring or light grooves cannot be removed by hand (with emery cloth) the drum MUST be refinished or replaced"

There is NO ALLOWABLE AMOUNT OF GROOVING ALLOWED ON A DRUM when replacing friction m,aterial- PERIOD.

read ALL of:

[Clare Snyder]

No, your best friend whoworks at the auto parts store may be as clueless as you are. BUY OEM SPEC PARTS and you can't go wrong.

OEM SPEC parts WILL be equal to or excedingOEM specs.

With pads you worry about dust - not so with drums/shoes.

Soare you.

No, they will sell you what you are willing to pay for. If you want "economy" friction, they willsell you "economy" friction - which M

Then ask to see the factory shoe at the dealer and read the rating.

The "monroe premium" shoes I have "on the shelf" for my ranger are EE on all 4 shoes. The "certified" semi-metallic pads I have "onthe shelf" for the ranger are EF

Since the rear brakes basically "go along for the ride" unless you are hauling a load, the friction rating isn't TERRIBLY critical anyway

-

LikeI said - stupidly cheap - not worth rebuilding unless the cyls are not available.

Didn't say you shouldn't. Just LISTEN to what I'm saying. BUY OE#M SPEC and you GET OEM SPEC.

Listen to one of the most experienced wrenches on this newsgroup. I've wrenched, I've been service manager, and I've taught the trade at both secondary school and trade levels. Since 1969.

ANd if you buy OEM SPEC aftermarket p[arts, they will br too. What do you not understand about OEM SPEC????

No, you choose OEM SPEC from a TRUSTED MANUFACTURER - no matter who you buy from.

And who says the friction material is accurately marked???? You have no idea where the friction material came from, and if it meets the spec stamped on it. It is almost CERTAINLY sourced fromChina - and likely assembled on the shoe in China, regardless of the brand, and China will counterfeit anything, given the chance. This is where a "trusted manufacturer" comes in, as they do "quality control" and assure the product meets spec.

You could have FF stamped on a thich chunk of cardboard on an "xyz" brand part and it might not even meet the loweast spec.

They don't mean SQUAT if you can't trust the brand. See where I'm coming from???

ANd over half the "enthusiasts" don't know shit from shinola - they just listen to other "enthusiasts" or "armchair experts"

It's printed on the friction material by the manufacturer - can you trust the manufacturer????? If so, trust the manufacturer to provide OEM quality. If not, the ratings don't mean shit.

Like I said - BUY QUALITY and you are not guessing any more than you are doing it your way.

Correct - there was no difference undernormal driving conditions - they likely didn't wear the same, but they stopped the car at all legal speeds under normal load conditions

They bopught "economy" pads - and the whiz-bang enthusiast pads may have been no better than what they bought,

Then go to the dealer and check the OEM parts they have in stock, and you will KNOW the spec. Then order the OEM quality parts from Rock, and if they are sub-standard, send them back. No rocket science. - unless you've pissed off the dealership parts department and they won't do anything for you.

I had customers that I'd refuse to do anything for because they were cheapassed pricks who you could never satisfy, and/or they were know-it-all know-nothings that argued with everything you told them.

If you are that kind of person (and it's looking a bit that way because you don't listen to experience - you "know better" )- then good luck and it looks good on you.