Drum brakes - do you disconnect the parking brake cable?

On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:31:18 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

You do NOT need to know the ratings. Buy their OEM quality shoes and the manufacturer has done the homework for you. it will meet or excede OEM spec - which is all you need or want.

They are virtually ALWAYS sourced as a set of 4 - I've never seen shoes sold individually.

You REALLY don't need that - it's not a race car.

That's because it is generally not required for them (or you) to know the rating.

If they are OEM quality they WILL beright.

They never do. Every one of those manufacturers produce oem quality shoes, as wellas "economy" parts. You want OEM from Wagner, Centric, Raybestos, or Bendix - not familiar with BeckArnley - but have heard good things about their clutches - don't know PowerStop or Monroe - and AC Delco was good when they were a part of GM - but I think it's just a "brand" now - so no idea. No faith in anything Bosch myself - but they MAY make a perfectly adequate product.

Every day of the year - I've NEVER , other than on these newsgroups where "armchair experts" abound, heard of checking the friction rating of replacement friction material for standard street vehicles - and never did for navigational rallye vehicles either. That's a "track" thing. Don't worry about it - just buy the "oem quality" or better shoes.
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On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:04:15 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

I respectfully disagree with you - but I agree with you that if you buy from someone you *trust* (e.g., the dealership or your best friend who works at an auto parts store), then you don't need to worry about friction ratings because *they* worry about the friction rating for you.
But let's face it. A brake shoe has one and only one primary job. And that's friction.
If the friction rating of the shoe is, say, EF, and you buy FF, you're fine, but if you buy EE, then you're getting a shoe that has lower friction coefficients than the OEM manufacturer stated.
Now, *after* you get the right friction rating, there's more to the story (e.g., dust, noise, warranty, price, etc.), but if you don't know the OEM friction rating, then it's impossible to correctly buy brake shoes.
You can get *lucky*. But you are just guessing.

We're both saying the same thing, which is that the friction rating (which, by law, is printed on *every* USA pad) will meet or exceed the OEM spec if you buy from a reliable source who would, we hope, refuse to sell you a brake pad *lower* than the OEM spec.
Let's hope that's the case for mom and pop - but for me - I trust in the friction rating, since it's printed on *every* shoe, it isn't hard to find (if the shoe is in your hands).

I did some more homework by calling the local parts stores (I had called the dealer first) who tell me that they sell them for less than twenty bucks for a set of four.
The wheel cylinders are cheap also, at about 16 bucks per cylinder and at about 7 bucks for the repair kit so I'll get a couple of those too.

Let's just respectfully disagree on whether I should match or exceed the friction rating of the OEM brake shoe.
In all my years with disc brakes, I've never bought a pad without knowing the friction rating ahead of time (usually FF or GG - but mostly FF) and I would never put on a pad that doesn't meet or exceed the OEM friction rating.

I agree that if I buy Toyota shoes from the Toyota dealership, that the friction rating will be correct as it will be the OEM friction rating, whatever that is.
So if I buy from the dealer, I don't need to know anything because I would be trusting the dealer to give me the correct shoes.
If I buy from Rock Auto, then I have to make the choice based on the friction rating first and foremost.
It's not like friction isn't an important thing for a brake shoe.

That is true. If that is true that is true. It's not always true even if they say it's true. I'll trust the two letters printed on the shoe itself.

You seem to be cognizant of "branding" (e.g., AT&T is just a brand name, it's no longer the same company as it was). Brands have value, but you know, from oil filters and batteries and tires, etc., that they brand all sorts of shit just to get more money for the same thing.
Oil filters are notorious for that. You have to dig deeply to figure out who *really* makes that oil filter and what it looks like inside (e.g., paper backflow valves, glued pleats, rubber versus paper stops, etc.).
Branding is bullshit for the most part.
What I care about are friction ratings.
After that, I care about stuff that I will never get the truth on, such as dusting, and noise, but that's just a fact of life that you can't get that information except from enthusiasts (e.g., Jurid FF pads dust like crazy but PBR FF pads don't ... go figure).
The *first* spec on friction material is *always* friction.
After that, you generally don't get the truth even though plenty of other stuff matters - but the friction rating is *printed* on ever shoe so it's unconscionable not to take it into account when purchasing shoes.
Otherwise you're just guessing.

I've seen people put Wagner EE pads on a car spec'd for FF OEM pads, and they didn't even know it.
They showed a picture of the pads and I had to tell them that the pads didn't even meet OEM specs.
The sad thing is that they could have had Textar or Axxis pads for about the same price that were FF or even GG.
I'll repeat that the PRIMARY job of friction material is friction. Hence the friction coefficient is printed on all USA pads and shoes.
There's a *reason* for that. You can certainly *trust* to luck - but I prefer to read the shoe. :)
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 03:34:20 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

No, your best friend whoworks at the auto parts store may be as clueless as you are. BUY OEM SPEC PARTS and you can't go wrong.

OEM SPEC parts WILL be equal to or excedingOEM specs.

With pads you worry about dust - not so with drums/shoes.

Soare you.

No, they will sell you what you are willing to pay for. If you want "economy" friction, they willsell you "economy" friction - which M<AY have the same friction characteristics, but only last 50,000 miles, or 30,000 instead of 175000.

Then ask to see the factory shoe at the dealer and read the rating.
The "monroe premium" shoes I have "on the shelf" for my ranger are EE on all 4 shoes. The "certified" semi-metallic pads I have "onthe shelf" for the ranger are EF
Since the rear brakes basically "go along for the ride" unless you are hauling a load, the friction rating isn't TERRIBLY critical anyway -

LikeI said - stupidly cheap - not worth rebuilding unless the cyls are not available.

Didn't say you shouldn't. Just LISTEN to what I'm saying. BUY OE#M SPEC and you GET OEM SPEC.
Listen to one of the most experienced wrenches on this newsgroup. I've wrenched, I've been service manager, and I've taught the trade at both secondary school and trade levels. Since 1969.

ANd if you buy OEM SPEC aftermarket p[arts, they will br too. What do you not understand about OEM SPEC????

No, you choose OEM SPEC from a TRUSTED MANUFACTURER - no matter who you buy from.

And who says the friction material is accurately marked???? You have no idea where the friction material came from, and if it meets the spec stamped on it. It is almost CERTAINLY sourced fromChina - and likely assembled on the shoe in China, regardless of the brand, and China will counterfeit anything, given the chance. This is where a "trusted manufacturer" comes in, as they do "quality control" and assure the product meets spec.
You could have FF stamped on a thich chunk of cardboard on an "xyz" brand part and it might not even meet the loweast spec.

They don't mean SQUAT if you can't trust the brand. See where I'm coming from???

ANd over half the "enthusiasts" don't know shit from shinola - they just listen to other "enthusiasts" or "armchair experts"


It's printed on the friction material by the manufacturer - can you trust the manufacturer????? If so, trust the manufacturer to provide OEM quality. If not, the ratings don't mean shit.

Like I said - BUY QUALITY and you are not guessing any more than you are doing it your way.

Correct - there was no difference undernormal driving conditions - they likely didn't wear the same, but they stopped the car at all legal speeds under normal load conditions

They bopught "economy" pads - and the whiz-bang enthusiast pads may have been no better than what they bought,

Then go to the dealer and check the OEM parts they have in stock, and you will KNOW the spec. Then order the OEM quality parts from Rock, and if they are sub-standard, send them back. No rocket science. - unless you've pissed off the dealership parts department and they won't do anything for you.
I had customers that I'd refuse to do anything for because they were cheapassed pricks who you could never satisfy, and/or they were know-it-all know-nothings that argued with everything you told them.
If you are that kind of person (and it's looking a bit that way because you don't listen to experience - you "know better" )- then good luck and it looks good on you.
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Clare Snyder posted for all of us...

I predicted this would happen...
--
Tekkie

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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 14:19:19 -0500, Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

If simply responding truthfully, and providing referenced facts for my response is bothering you, I'll drop out now.
I do thank those who provided advice, and I comprehended *all* the advice, all of which was helpful.
Mostly to Clare Snyder, I appreciate his advice, born of experience, where he is correct that pretty much any shoe that is OEM quality will work unless they lie and, to Clare's point, the specs can lie too.
To Clare's point on the gouges, let's forget about that since the actual spec from the manufacturer is almost impossible to find, and all that Clare found essentially said zero (where to them, zero is 0.000080", which is pretty darn close to zero, I agree).
Besides, my drums are fine so the gouges are just an aside where I merely state that finding a manufacturer's spec on them for *rotors* is damn near impossible (but it can be done) and when I did that, I was shocked at how huge they were (for rotors!). I never found a spec for drums so I'll stick with Clare's "zero" for now - which is fine.
Regarding the cylinders, I saw the post of "how would you know", where that's a question that is actually insinuating more than it's asking - but the direct answer is so simple that everyone already knows it. 1. Visual inspection 2. Mechanical inspection 3. Measurements
That's how you know *anything* needs to be repaired, so the question is moot, as you can't do #3 or even much of #2 or #1 without taking it apart and if you take it apart, you may as well rebuild it, which is likely what I'll do.
Regarding the procedure, I think I have it down now, where all I need to do is do it, so there won't be much (if anything) to report back until I buy the pads, the repair kit, and do the job.
Thanks for all your advice and help, and please do realize that my only differences with Clare are that he trusts certain things more than I do and I trust certain things more than he does - but I understand and agree with all his points.
I will chide anyone who puts "E" pads or shoes on a vehicle, and I always have, since E is the friction coefficient of steel on steel (that's a fact).
Nothing wrong with E pads if E is the OEM pad, but if the Oem pad is F, G, or H, (most likely F though as G and H are less common), then putting an E on is below the manufacturer's spec.
The nearest Toyota is 50 miles round trip, so I am on the phone with dealer after dealer trying to get just one of them to open up a box to tell me what is printed on the shoes. I'll report back what they tell me if I can convince one of them to open a box and look.
Thanks! If I don't report back - it will be because I have no new information for you. Thanks!
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 19:52:18 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

Pay up your insurance first - this is a third pary vehicle - you need a commercial garage policy to cover your liability - and as a non qualified mechanic, good luck getting insurance. If something goes wrong aznd someone is killed, or worse yet maimed for life, wheather the brakes actually CAUSED the accident or not, you will be fighting an expensive lawsuite - even if you win, it will cost you BIG TIME. -

ANd yet even police cruisers come from the factory with EE pads - according to the information you provided.

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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:47:38 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

I think progress was made today with the realization that FF is probably the Chase Test SAE J866a friction designation for the OEM shoes.
https://s18.postimg.org/wqilqasdl/toyota_friction_material.jpg

My focus on specifications may be bullshit, I agree, as it's a matter of trust in the specification for the SAE J866a Chaste Test results.
Your focus on a billion web sites all accurately portraying "meets OEM quality" is also subject to trust.
A web site may make all sorts of claims (say, for Axxis "performance" pads), while another web site sells the base pads (say, for PBR "economy" pads) where the numbers printed on the pads can tell me that they're the exact same pad because marketing can say almost anything they want as long as the pads fit.
Luckily, the numbers tell us if they're the same pads, or not: AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011 <http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf > The brakes work perfectly, and they are OEM spec. The shoes from ford

That's great but you saw the mention that EE brake pads are only marginally better than no brake pad at all. http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm

You have a friction coefficient at a variety of temperatures of somewhere between 0.25u to 0.35u, which is a wide range.
I personally have chided *anyone* who uses EE pads, especially those who did it without knowing that they were EE pads, becaues I would use FF pads which have a measurably higher friction coefficient of somewhere between 0.35u to 0.45u, which itself is a huge range.

I agree with you, as always, since I've *seen* rotors worn to their ribs, and the cars were still being driven on the road.
All I'm saying, and all I ever said, was that I have never put EE pads or shoes on any vehicle and I hope that I never will.
FF is fine for me as long as that meets OEM specs.

We're talking about the SAE J688a Chase Test whose results are printed on *every* brake pad and shoe sold in the USA. This information has been around for many years. Here is the PDF from 2011 for example:

I'm sorry if my adult conversation with you has offended you. We don't disagree on the technology.
We simply disagree on the level of trust.
For example, you trust EE pads far more than I do (and that's fine). You also trust that every web site accurately portrays "meets OEM specs" far more than I do, and that's fine.
Apparently you don't trust the SAE J866a Chase Test results, which are printed on every brake pad and shoe - where I do.
We don't disagree in concept - we merely have different trust levels in different sets of data.

I agree with that that what really matters is real-world experience, where, you'll note, this report looks at EE and FF pads in Police Cruisers in depth: https://www.justnet.org/pdf/EvaluationBrakePads2000.pdf

Actually, I do. If we trust in the SAE J8866 Chase Test results, we do know a *lot* about the friction at various temperatures. And, if we match the entire code, we know *who* actually manufactured the pads/shoes (e.g., we'd know that some are just rebranded versions of others).
So, it seems you may be under estimating the huge amount of knowledge there is in the direct result of SAE J866a tests printed on every brake pad and shoe sold in the USA today.
We can tell if two pads from two different brands are the same pad, and we can tell who actually makes every pad sold in the USA today.
It's all here, all 176 pages of it: <http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf > You are an argumentative know-it-all kid (whatever your age)
I'm far younger than you are and not as experienced as you are. I don't have any experience with drum brakes. Like many here, I have an engineering degree but it's not in this field.

Brands are a marketing gimmick. The 176 page document proves that.

I apologize that you feel I don't comprehend your statements. I think we have a difference in trust. You don't trust SAE J866a Chase Test results; I do. You trust marketing branding; I don't.
It's not a matter of comprehension - but a matter of levels of trust.

VW was making cars for a long time, but they screwed the consumer. Apple is an extremely trustworthy brand, but they screwed the consumer. Wells Fargo is a great brand, but they were fabricating accounts.
What do you have against me being able to read the numbers on a brake shoe to tell if two brake shoes are either identical in all ways, or if they are made by the same (or different) manufacturer?
Why would you hate me having that information?

I'm sorry if you think that being able to read the numbers printed on a brake shoe in order to tell if that shoe is identical to another shoe or made by the same company makes me a paranoid idiot.
I'm sorry if knowing the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient of a friction material makes me a paranoid idiot.
There's nothing I can say to you if you think that, which will change your mind. We must just disagree.
You seem to think information about friction for friction materials is bad. I seem to think it's a fundamental first order data for any friction pad.
We will just have to disagree.

I'm sorry you think I'm paranoid for wanting to know what the SAE J866a Chase Test friction coefficient is for the OEM shoes and for the shoes that I put on the vehicle.
One thing that this "paranoia" will get me, and that's the fact that I hope to *never* put on any vehicle the same pads you put on yours, since EE pads are, as you know, only marginally better in friction than no pads at all.

Well - we do *agree* on one thing! :)

See! There *is* common ground between us!

Actually, at $157 a set, I can't ask the owner to pay that much for an SAE J866a Chase Test FF shoe when I may be able to get an SAE J866a Chase Test FF shoe from the *same* manufacturer for around 20 or 30 bucks.
It's all in the branding that the 176-page PDF decodes for us.

I'm younger than you, so I don't know all those clever repartee's yet.

Agreed. But you don't have any proof, do you, that the SAE J866a Chase Test is being abused?
Even if it was abused, the standards require all pads to state their actual company of origin no matter what brand.
Why do you hate me having this information of who actually made the shoe?

Just a moment ago you repeatedly claimed I was paranoid. Now you claim that the SAE J866a standards as reported in this 176-page PDF are all faked?
AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011 <http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf
Where's your shred of proof?

Why don't you trust that the number on pad 1, if it's the same as the number on pad 2, even if the brand is completely different, is the same pad?
I'll open a separate discussion for the police report, as you bring up some very good points when you assert the EE pads outperformed the FF pads.
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On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:45:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

ASS U ME make an ASS of YOU and ME

If you are so smart how come you couldn't come upwith the current edition of the report?
Quite some engineer, Isee.
http://www.ameca.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-December-8-2017.pdf is the Dec 8, 2017 versiion

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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 22:27:22 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

Thanks for that link!
You are better than I am at finding it and I am not ashamed to admit it.
I'm not sure why, since I used epic's search engine and I gave it the full name of the report, so, you found it better than I did, I agree.
We all benefit from this information you found because it allows us, at the very least, to at least tell that a PBR pad is the exact same as a Metal Master pad which is exactly the same as an Axxis pad, since the numbers will be the same on all three (for example).
Bear in mind that this document generally covers 3 years, so that's from December 2014 to December 2017 which is as good as we can ask for. <http://www.ameca.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-December-8-2017.pdf
thanks!
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On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:45:52 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

Google "counterfeit brake pads"
The results should shock you and change your mind.
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On 10/01/2018 2:34 PM, Mad Roger wrote:

Best you toddle off and pay those inflated prices. THE OEM Toyota ones will be exactly the same friction rating as the ones you are replacing.
--

Xeno

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On 1/9/2018 8:31 PM, Mad Roger wrote:

There are no asbestos brake linings available so everything else now is similar and adequate.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 02:31:18 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger wrote:

I called Rock Auto but they don't do any customer support over the phone. I called three Toyota dealers, all of whom refused to provide the information printed on the pad.
One said "come down and look" but they're 50 miles round trip, so I'll try at the computer first and let you know as the friction coefficient is the most important job of friction materials.
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:10:18 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger wrote:

I found a clue to the J866a OEM friction coefficient on Amazon.
https://s18.postimg.org/wqilqasdl/toyota_friction_material.jpg
I looked at the zoomable photos on Amazon, where out of about a score of choices for the specific vehicle entered, 3 of the photos had the J866a numbers visible which are legally mandated to be printed in every shoe.
All were SAE J866a FF friction ratings. E = 0.25-0.35 F = 0.35-0.45 <== Amazon shoes for this vehicle are FF it seems G = 0.45-0.55 H = 0.55-0.65 http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/~smacadof/DOTPadCodes.htm
1. $16.09 Centric 110.05890 Drum Brake Shoe (Amazon.com product link shortened) 2. $21.99 Power Stop B589 Autospecialty Brake Shoe (Amazon.com product link shortened) 3. $29.14 Bosch BS589 Blue Disc Brake Shoe Set (Amazon.com product link shortened)
This doesn't prove the J866a friction coefficient for the Toyota OEM shoes is FF, but it strongly implies that they are (if Amazon is correct that these are OEM replacements).
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Mad Roger posted for all of us...

Hmmm, all this have a 589 part number, what conclusion can one draw?
--
Tekkie

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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 16:38:45 -0500, Tekkie+AK4- wrote:

Wow. That's a great point. You are perceptive since I didn't even notice that. There is a PDF that the US government puts out every few years that must contain a lookup for *every* brake shoe or pad ever sold in the USA for passenger vehicles.
I'll see if I can find it on the net because it allows us to cross reference a full number (like the Centric CEN11005890-110AA1436-FF-14-N16) to the actual manufacturer (which might not be Centric who themselves may not even make shoes as it may be a re-brander just like Axxis and PBR are exactly the same pads).
The PowerStop number doesn't look like the full number, so I'll skip that.
But the Bosch number looks like a full number at FB0589-80S?-584-FF-N14-0709.
Here's an older listing from 2011 titled: AMECA Compliance List of Automotive Safety Devices: Friction Material Edge Codes(TM), May 2011 <http://safebraking.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/AMECA-List-of-VESC-V-3-Brake-Friction-Material-Edge-Codes-May-20112.pdf It's 176 pages so I'll go through it to see if I can find out more information about the Toyota OEM friction ratings, but I'm pretty sure that it's getting to be a safer bet that they're FF rated shoes.
I haven't been able to find a *newer* friction-codes document yet though.
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On Wed, 10 Jan 2018 20:57:50 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

Don't know about you, but those sure don't look like "disc brake shoes" to me!!!!

And they couldwell be "stock photos" too - not necessarily what youare buying. You are putting a lot of "trust" in Amazon.

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On 1/10/2018 2:10 PM, Mad Roger wrote:

Some garden vegetables concentrate trace elements to a possibly significant degree. That said, the guy who calls a restaurant asking for today's spectrograph analysis of the salad gets a click to dial tone. And rightfully so.
--
Andrew Muzi
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On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 20:44:47 -0000 (UTC), Mad Roger

You do not need to know the ratings - just buy "oem replacement" - they WILL be the right stuff. (there are cheaper qualities available - usually sold as "economy") Premium shoes and oem replacement will both be VERY close toidentical. In almost 50yuears as a mechanic Inever once had to "match" friction materials for "stock" brake replacement.
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On Tue, 09 Jan 2018 21:53:02 -0500, Clare Snyder wrote:

I think we actually agree in that I completly agree with you that if the friction rating of the pads I get is equal to the OEM spec, then I am where I want to be.
I also agree that we can *trust* the guy who sells me the friction material that he wouldn't sell me a friction material that didn't meet OEM spec.
It's sort of like when buying tires, Costco won't sell you an S rated tire if the original tires that came on the vehicle are an H rated tire. They don't want to sell you anything less than OEM.
I get all that. So I agree with you.
However ... I like to know my ingredients, so to speak.
SO I like to know what the friction rating is for the OEM pads/shoes, and for the pads/shoes that I buy.
You really can't fault me for wanting that information. It's just like reading the ingredients on a label where the ingredients are required to be listed in order by law.
Same with the friction ratings.
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