Does the body feel a shock on a GFIC protected circuit?

Livestock need water in winter as much as in warm weather. Without using tank heaters, the water will freeze. the animal wont get water and the costly tank will likely be damaged too. These heaters are plugged into an AC outlet and submerged in the water. If a break in the cord or short in the heating coil develops, you can end up with dead animals, and this used to be common on farms.

I have horses, and I nearly learned the hard way years ago when one horse could not let go of a tank as the AC surged thru his body. He fell, but was still stuck to the tank. Luckily I saw this happening outside my window, and ran out the door barefooted on freezing snow, and ripped the power cord out of the outlet which was on a pole about 25 feet from my door. The horse survived and is still alive some 10 years later. The next day I bought a whole case of GFI outlets and replaced all outlets that these tank heaters are used. I even made up some plug in ones by putting a GFI into a waterproof electrical box with a cord to a regular outlet. Those are for when I need to plug in a tank heater for temporary, and dont feel the need to replace the built in outlet for a one time use.

If it was not for these GFI outlets, several horses may have likely died. Some of them seem to like to chew on strange things, like wooden fences, plastic feed bowls, and power cords. Damaging all of these things tends to piss me off, but chewing on cords can and will kill the animal. That's where the GFI comes in. I have never lost any animals, yet each winter at least one tank heater cord gets chewed up or chewed completely in half. At around $50 a piece for these heaters, that really makes me quite angered, but knowing the animal is ok, is what matters most. (even if they are stupid ).

But I've noticed a pattern. It seems that once they chew a cord, they never do it again. This makes me wonder if they do indeed get a shock for a very small milli-second, before the GFI trips????????

Horses are intelligent, but there must be some reason they dont chew a cord again.....

Heck, if they chew on the fence boards, I paint cayenne or jalepeno pepper powder (mixed with mineral oil) on the board. That stops them for awhile, but they seem to always try chewing wood again. Yet, when they chew off a power cord, I have never seen that horse or pony chew a cord again.

Somehow I cant get myself to grab a GFI protected hot wire while standing barefoot on wet ground (remember, horses, cattle, etc are barefoot, or bare hooved) In other words they are grounded. This is the reason electric fences keep them contained (but that wont kill them). Therefore the question arises, while the GFI trips extremely fast, there must be a brief moment that they feel the voltage. Otherwise why would they stop chewing cords?

Of course, I'm glad they do. At $50 a pop, the cost would add up fast if they did it over and ober.....

Yea, I do my best to run the cords thru steel pipe, and try all sorts of things like that, but if they want to chew the cord, they will pull the heater out of the water and pull it out of the pipe, sometimes unplug it, and .... well, they can just be a major pain in the ass at times.... At the same time, they are the best pets anyone can have, and fun to ride too. I would not want to lose any of them from electrocution.

Reply to
jw
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working properly. I wouldn't recommend testing for live current by putting yourself in harms way, as the failure rate of GFCI receptacles is pretty high

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Reply to
RBM

There is a simple test you can do with an unfolded paper clip or a hair pin.

Hhmmmmm............ No. Never mind!

RonB :o)

Reply to
RonB

Have you considered they might be bored out of thier minds, and looking for something to do? How about put some thing in the stalls, for them to do? Maybe you can hire "Only In America, Larry the cable guy does....." to find a way to provide entertainment, during the horses off hours?

Lets hope the horses don't figure out how to putsh the reset button while another horse is chewing the cords?

I'm not all sure how practical this is, but maybe a circulating pump from the stock water, back to some where indoors. And have an indirect heater from a fuel fired boiler, instead of using expensive electric filament heat.

Chewing on wooden rails? Sure sounds like boredom, to me. Or, teething.

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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I have horses, and I nearly learned the hard way years ago when one horse could not let go of a tank as the AC surged thru his body. He fell, but was still stuck to the tank. Luckily I saw this happening outside my window, and ran out the door barefooted on freezing snow, and ripped the power cord out of the outlet which was on a pole about 25 feet from my door. The horse survived and is still alive some 10 years later. The next day I bought a whole case of GFI outlets and replaced all outlets that these tank heaters are used. I even made up some plug in ones by putting a GFI into a waterproof electrical box with a cord to a regular outlet. Those are for when I need to plug in a tank heater for temporary, and dont feel the need to replace the built in outlet for a one time use.

If it was not for these GFI outlets, several horses may have likely died. Some of them seem to like to chew on strange things, like wooden fences, plastic feed bowls, and power cords. Damaging all of these things tends to piss me off, but chewing on cords can and will kill the animal. That's where the GFI comes in. I have never lost any animals, yet each winter at least one tank heater cord gets chewed up or chewed completely in half. At around $50 a piece for these heaters, that really makes me quite angered, but knowing the animal is ok, is what matters most. (even if they are stupid ).

But I've noticed a pattern. It seems that once they chew a cord, they never do it again. This makes me wonder if they do indeed get a shock for a very small milli-second, before the GFI trips????????

Horses are intelligent, but there must be some reason they dont chew a cord again.....

Heck, if they chew on the fence boards, I paint cayenne or jalepeno pepper powder (mixed with mineral oil) on the board. That stops them for awhile, but they seem to always try chewing wood again. Yet, when they chew off a power cord, I have never seen that horse or pony chew a cord again.

Somehow I cant get myself to grab a GFI protected hot wire while standing barefoot on wet ground (remember, horses, cattle, etc are barefoot, or bare hooved) In other words they are grounded. This is the reason electric fences keep them contained (but that wont kill them). Therefore the question arises, while the GFI trips extremely fast, there must be a brief moment that they feel the voltage. Otherwise why would they stop chewing cords?

Of course, I'm glad they do. At $50 a pop, the cost would add up fast if they did it over and ober.....

Yea, I do my best to run the cords thru steel pipe, and try all sorts of things like that, but if they want to chew the cord, they will pull the heater out of the water and pull it out of the pipe, sometimes unplug it, and .... well, they can just be a major pain in the ass at times.... At the same time, they are the best pets anyone can have, and fun to ride too. I would not want to lose any of them from electrocution.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

-snip-

That will test for a short, not a Ground Fault. I think urinating on the outlet is the proper way to test for GFI.

I could be wrong.

Jim

Reply to
Jim Elbrecht

That sounds like a bad idea. So, what happens when on the 1 of 100, you find a defective GFCI (probably made by FPE Stabloc) and you end up whizzing on about 50 amps or so of AC current? Let me guess, you yell "Hot dog!"

Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus

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That will test for a short, not a Ground Fault. I think urinating on the outlet is the proper way to test for GFI.

I could be wrong.

Jim

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

Well of course the current flows until the GFI trips, so for that fraction of a second you or the horse are going to feel the shock. I think I would put the cords into flexible aluminum conduit and make sure the conduit is grounded. Adding a 6ft grounding rod near the water would also be a good idea to supplement the one back at the meter.

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Reply to
Davej

It for sure will test an electric fence. I learned that at about 6yoa when my brother had me test one.

Harry K

Reply to
Harry K

It is several milliseconds and you do feel the shock.

The old adage is the GFCI keeps you from being electrocuted but it doesn't keep you from falling off the ladder.

Falls kill a lot more construction workers than shocks

Reply to
gfretwell

Horses can be a pain in the ass, no matter what you do, if they want to be. And they usually do. Nothing against horses - but there is a reason for the expression "a horse's ass"

Reply to
clare

Get a recirculaing tank type engine heater and plumb in hose fittings at top and bottom of tank (where the Horse cannot reach it to chew off the hose) They work well and automatically circulate the water.

Reply to
clare

Lots of good answers for the electrical situation. Hie yourself down to you= r veterinarians office and get some FREE advice about the horses and their = chewing problem. We seldom had any chewing problems with our horses so it w= ould be best to seek professional advice.

Reply to
Roy

GFI is often a good idea. If you ground anything that the animal can touch, the GFI should trip long before the leakage got high enough to hurt anybody. but....

There's no reason for an animal to be injured by a defective heater. It should be easy to cover the tank and have the water drip into the trough so there's no electrical contact.

They invented conduit so critters couldn't chew through cables. Burying cables also helps. They can't chew what they can't get at.

Reply to
mike

I had an experience a a few years ago. I was working in a flooded area being pumped out by a LIttle Giant submersible pump. I was powering the pump via an extension cord plugged into a GFI outlet. While working in the same muddy mess that the pump was exposed to, at time a felt a bit of a tinge in my hands & arms. Not much but noticeable. I was fully soaked.

I did not diagnose it further but I did plug the cord from the GFI and the tingling went away. The GFI never tripped (I tested with the push button and it worked fine.

My guess was that I was more sensitive than the GFI.

cheers Bob

Reply to
DD_BobK

A GFI doesn't require everything or anything to be grounded to work. Grounding all the metal within a barn, stall, etc would be impractical. Which is why a GFI should be in place.

Reply to
trader4

What I meant was, "grounding stuff that has potential to get shorted to Hot wiring causes the GFI to trip, so you don't have to wait for the animal to trip it." You only have to ground stuff that has potential to short to the grid. A ground rod is pretty simple and inexpensive. This is in ADDITION to the GFI. And renders the question, "what happens if the animal trips the GFI" moot. It's already tripped.

Reply to
mike

What I meant was, "grounding stuff that has potential to get shorted to Hot wiring causes the GFI to trip, so you don't have to wait for the animal to trip it." You only have to ground stuff that has potential to short to the grid. A ground rod is pretty simple and inexpensive. This is in ADDITION to the GFI. And renders the question, "what happens if the animal trips the GFI" moot. It's already tripped.

Reply to
mike

Most of that "stuff" per code should already be grounded, eg metal switch boxes, conduit, metal light fixtures, and the water heater that is in question.

And if you tie that new ground rod to say the metal electrical box or conduit, its

A - redundant B - A code violation

The whole point of GFIs is to catch all those other paths before they can harm a person or the horse. And it doesn't render the question moot as no matter how much metal "stuff" you ground there is always going to be other failure modes.

Reply to
trader4

veterinarians office and get some FREE advice about the horses and their chewing problem. We seldom had any chewing problems with our horses so it would be best to seek professional advice.

I was kind of wondering about that. My horses have thrown the heater OUT of the tank a few times, but never chewed the cord. And no, it's not on no frikkin gfci GD outlet.

Reply to
Steve Barker

He could still be establishing an equipotential grounding grid and that is a ground rod on steroids.

For the purposes of this discussion, a GFCI protected circuit should be safe enough not to kill the horse. The question is how many times a horse would chew that conductor and get shocked before he figured out what was causing it and stop chewing the conductor.

Reply to
gfretwell

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