On Apr 5, 10:03 pm, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
here sewage is now about 3 times the cost of water...and going up more
allegheny county has strict inspection requirements on sewer lines.
the inspections are done by retired plumbers.
they give anyone replacing say their own sewer main to their house a
they only want registered plumbers to do plumbing
We had a terrible scandal here in Jefferson County Alabama involving
billions of dollars meant to be use to rebuild and modernize the sewer
system. The county commissioners and people involved including Wall
Street companies handling bonds and the huge sums of money just went
bonkers and turned the whole affair into one giant cluster coitus. Now
many of those involved are in prison and we the peasants are stuck with
huge sewer bills that are often higher than the water bill in which both
charges are combined. Long gone are the days when we had a water bill of
$10 or perhaps a whopping $20. It's a travesty of justice for the people
of the county and those in surrounding areas who may be dependent on the
county sewer system. o_O
Bob seems to think that anyone threatening a lawsuit is worse
than the grim reaper and that anyone actually filing a suit against
is the end of the world. And on that basis, if you're going to sell
a house, you must fix everything and anything that a potential
buyer might object to or one day sue you over.
So, you could pay to fix 10 things that cost $10K each on
the chance that one day they could result in a buyer coming
back to you demanding payment for something. And that
something might still not be on the list of things you did fix.
And I think we're on the same page, that if that person comes
back and says, it cost me $12K to put in a new sewer, you
could just pay it then;. Or offer to pay $8K of it, etc. Yeah, I
guess there is the pathological case, where the sewer clogs
up, the dummies living there continue to flush the toilet,
filling the basement up with 7 feet of sewage, grandma opens the
basement door, falls in and drowns, the house develops mold
and is condemned, but it doesn't sound like the more common
outcome to me. The more common thing would be they have
a problem, they fix it, they shell out the money, then try to recover
what it actually cost to fix from you, the seller.
And again I'll issue the disclaimer that I'm not saying that
you should not disclose the sewer issue. I'm just saying that
living in fear of some mega lawsuit doesn't make sense to me.
It's going to be mighty hard to turn a blocked sewer line into some
huge lawsuit. The plaintiff has to prove actual damages, ie what
they really spent to fix it. They can't just show up in court
saying pay me $100K. He also thinks lawyers take these cases
on a contigency basis and I doubt that is true for the typical
sewer clogged up case.
well if you had a choice would you like to be sued? and even if you
win theres still lawyers fees.... they can amount to thousands...
all easily prevented by disclosure... hey the sewer has backed up a
few times roto rooter cleared them
now I live in pittsburgha very hilly area with freeze thaw cycles that
make the ground move, two old friends do backhoe work, they report
lines deeper around here to minimize earth movement and breaking
lines.. Its very common to see a dig around here with those heavy
steel plates supported by heavy steel rods holding them apart, to keep
ditches from collapsing.
my neighborhood water line is 6 foot deep, its broken a few times and
it gets fixed... my dads water line in phoenix is just a foot deep at
it all depends on where you live
On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:28:17 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
Many disclosures are not problems. It could simply be notice. For
example, we all know water heaters don't last forever. If you
replaced it 8 years ago why not just disclose that when the question
asked on the form is "Condition of water heater". Just say "Replaced
8 years ago". Then you won't have a buyer move in and have it leak
and claim they it "looked like new" and they thought it was new and if
it was "so old" you should have disclosed it. Another option is to
simply sell "as-is" even if you still disclose. And NOTHING has to be
dealt with to the buyers satisfaction unless that's what the contract
says. Most standard contracts make provisions for...
1 - A required disclosure by the owner (the owner can answer "unknown"
to everything if they wish but if they really knew something that can
2 - A ten day inspection period. Usually with a NOTE suggesting the
buyer hire a professional inspection service.
3 - a requirement for the Buyer to request in writing the repair of
those things deemed in need of repair. There is usually a time frame
during which they need to make this request, perhaps within 5 days
after the inspection period expires.
4 - Acceptance or rejection by the Seller of the buyers demands.
5a - If accepted, then it gets fixed, reinspected, and sale moves
5b. - if rejected, then the buyer needs to decide whether to accept it
without repairs or propose a reduction in price or ???. Whether to
accept it is up to the seller.
The above presumes there is no preset dollar amount within the seller
"must repair" or other similar provision. Basically the inspection
period is a 10 day window for the buyer to get cold feet -- here in AZ
they can basically claim their detailed inspection just makes them
leery of the house and reject it. Technically, they need a real
reason but no one wants to go to court and have their home sale tied
up for a couple years so sellers won't challenge a rejection.
Similarly, if a seller wants out they can reject all repair requests
and hope the buyer walks away but the seller has the upper hand since
they can just accept the defects and proceed with the sale. That
said, you really can't force someone to sell if they change their
mind, the best you could do is sue them for damages, assuming you can
prove damages from not being able to buy that house.
re: "the inspector saw water stains on a garage wall suggesting a past
I've actually been wondering about that in my own house. Many years
ago we had some ice dam issues and water leaked into the house. There
is a section of the attached garage ceiling where not only is there a
brown stain, there is also a few small holes where I opened it up to
let the water drain out. (We don't park in the garage, so the holes
don't bother me)
Fixing the holes won't be an issue, and I guess I could paint the
ceiling, but I've often wondered how I would explain the stains if I
decided to sell. The house been re-roofed using modern (2012) methods
and we made it though this past winter without a single ice dam
problem, even doing without the ice melt cables for the first time in
Still, if you look at the joists in the basement and parts of the
garage, you can see evidence of the ice dam problem from a decade ago.
I can't imagine that they won't be noted during an inspection, which
will then lead to a need for me to give an explanation.
I guess I could pull out the pictures of the ice dams, show them the
dates and hope any potential buyer (or inspector) believes that the
problem occurred a very long time ago. Still, it could scare off a
buyer that was on the edge anyway.
I'm not losing sleep over it, it's just something that I think about
every now and then.
...and one option for the buyer is "no way".
These days, I think you would be seriously limiting your buyer pool if
you refused any and all offers that required an inspection.
Buying a house without wanting an inspection, as you did, is easy.
Selling one while refusing to let an inspection be part of the deal
might not be.
On Thu, 4 Apr 2013 11:33:07 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
No problem if the price is "right". Quite a few houses are advertized
as "as is -handyman special" or "needs some attention" or "TLC
required". The buyer goes in with eyes wide open - what he sees (or
doesn't see) is what he gets. The price reflects this - but let's
face it. If a house needs $20,000 to bring it up to "condition" to
sell, you are unlikely to get $20,000 less selling it as is. The new
owner is going to make modifications anyway - so drop the price the
estimated cost of the "required" repair and you come out ahead. A
prospective buyer who is not going to be doing upgrades is unlikely to
buy the house at any rate. The guy doing major renovations will spend
less on the repair, in many cases, than you will - because it's part
of a bigger job he'll be doing anyway - even if you spent the $20,000
$25K off the asking price doesn't mean much to those of us that don't
know the asking price.
$25K off an asking price of $100,000 is huge. $25K off an asking price
of $1,000,000 isn't much more than an annoyance.
We need both numbers or perhaps a "percentage" off the asking price to
get a feel for how much the "as-is" offer was really worth.
I don't think the "as is" sale is really a viable option for
this root problem. What kind of haircut do you think you'd wind up
if you start raising red flags on the whole house by doing that?
My guess is a lot more than the cost of fixing the
Also you might want to check with a lawyer about what exacly
"as-is" means in your state. I don't think it exempts
you from following the state disclosure laws. So, you could
sell a house stating it's "as is" and if you had a failed septic
system that you knew about, had a history of problems with,
etc, and didn't disclose it, I think the buyer could still sue you
That's my understanding also. "As is" doesn't eliminate the
requirement to disclose items that may impact the buyer's decision.
I found this from an agent in California. This is exactly how I
thought it works, although I haven't bought or sold a house in a long
time, so it could be wrong or different in different locations.
"The California Residential Purchase agreement states that the sale is
"as-is." It also gives the buyer the right to investigate the
condition of the home and the obligation for you to disclose any
materials facts about the condition of the home that will or could
affect the buyer's decision to purchase. The buyer can then request
repairs which you can refuse to make or agree to pay for and make or
agree to a price reduction for the cost of the repairs or to pay the
buyer for the repairs at close of escrow (all negotiable in your
That's pretty much my understanding too. Absent a specific
guarantee, real estate sales are "as is" anyway. By advertising
it "as-is" to me means the seller doesn't want to do any repairs.
So, if the place needs paint, the dishwasher doesn't work, the
deck needs some repairs, obvious stuff that can be easily seen,
I would not expect them to fix that or ask for a further discount.
But if an inspection turns up that the septic system is shot or
there is extensive termite damage and
that was not disclosed, perhaps not even known to the seller,
then you can bet I'd be asking for a price reduction or I walk.
And the seller now knows that it needs a septic system, so
they will have to disclose that to other potential buyers.
I have a root infested sewer. every joint from under the house to the
street has roots. I ROCK SALT the sewer line a few times a year. Mix
very hot water with rock salt and let lay in line for day. Go to work
use no water at all.
cost about 3 bucks for 25 pounds of salt, salt kills roots FAST but
does not hurt trees. Been doing this for 15 years at least.... The
line at the street is over 12 feet deep and probably 15 grand to
replace:( not including new basement and garage floor, new driveway,
and new wall and part of sidewalk
Incidently a mature trees roots can be 2 to 3 times the size of its
drip edge.... and bushes can get int sewers too.
I would ABSOLUTELY disclose this at home sale time, or risk a nasty
Not saying they shouldn't disclose it. But I wouldn't be so
fearful of a nasty lawsuit either. If he discloses it, he's very
going to have to pay for the repair. If he doesn't and the buyer has
in a year, then they buyer is going to have to get
it fixed. Their potential recovery is pretty much what it
cost to get the tree roots cleaned out and then to presumably
replace the sewer line. I guess if the house has a basement
bathroom and there is the potential for the place to get filled
up with sewage, because some dummy keeps flushing the
toilet, that could be a factor. But it also usually costs money to
lawsuit, it's not trivial and there is no guarantee of winning
after you shell out all the legal fees. If the sewer line cost $5k
or $10K, are you going to go to war over that? Especially if
the seller says I'll pay it, or most of it? I mean the court is going
to award actual damages, not a $100K pay day.
The seller might find that a year later if the problem actually
happens, the buyer contacts him, he might just settle it with
the buyer for about the same amount it would have cost him
to replace the sewer himself. Again, not saying that's the ethical
or right thing to do in this case, just making the observation.
lawyers who work on contigency are not a sellers friend.
mr X buys a home and 9 months later the tree roots back up the sewer.
the plumber is called and after snaking and a camera inspection the
new owner gets the bad news, new sewer line needed....
he mentions it to his next door neighbor who reports XYZ plumbing came
in the past. They have the BiG RED Truck with the graphics, its hard
a quick call to XYZ plumbing confirms......
the new owner has little money and a new mortage. so he finds a lawyer
who only gets paid if he wins the case.
the lawyer asks what about the damages from the back up?? any mold in
your basement now?
how about restoration? sidewalks permits, large tree removal to get
macine in to do work...... etc etc.
lawyer gets percentage of win so lets run the bill up......
old owner spent home sales money on something else, and once the
courts are done with him and he ha paid lawyer to attempt to defend
him its a big mess......
all avoided by disclosing...
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