What law exactly? Cite it. There are so many misstatements in your
replies that I must assume you are extrapolating a very narrow
experience set to the whole continent. The National Electric Code is
a privately published document. It only becomes enforceable when it
has been adopted in whole or part by a state or a political
subdivision of a state. Do you even know what a minimum / maximum
state is? Just as almost half of US states do not have OSHA
enforcement for government employees and smaller firms many state have
no state wide electrical code. Only incorporated municipalities or
charter counties can adopt local codes in most states. Statutory
counties cannot, in most states, do anything not required of them by
state statute. Many states and local jurisdictions have declined to
adopt the Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter requirements of the last two
code cycles and that is only one example of local exception to your so
called absolute minimum. I have installed electrical installations
from Argentina to Alaska and California to Maine. I have worked in
many areas were there is no electrical code in place. Some of the
companies I have worked for went through a great deal of research in
trying to find a code enforcement authority for an installation only
to conclude that the owners acceptance representative was the only
authority having jurisdiction. There are in fact vast stretches of
the United States of America that have no publicly enforced electric
code of any kind.
LOL! the county just to the south of me has no such "codes"
"enforcement" or inspectors. You can build a complete house from
scratch, and no such permits except for a septic system are required.
So to say " You do have such an office," is not always correct.
remove the "not" from my address to email
We don't even have a septic system requirement. But I think farms of
less than 50 or maybe it's 100 acres might have some kind of
inspection requirement. As for his question, I have the 2005 code book
but it will take me awhile to find it. So, I'll just try to answer
this from memory. As for the wire nut question. I would not even
consider the pigtail method if you are going direct to, and only to, a
wall plug outlet. Just wire the black to the bronze with a wire nut
(correct size), white to the silver with a wire nut (correct size),
and the unwrapped copper to the green/ground. Now, if you are using a
metal box, you definately should pigtail and ground to the box also
and use a wire nut to connect the two wires (correct size). As for the
junction box, I'm not sure what you're asking. If it is a straight
run, why would you need a junction box? I might be confused by your
terminology and maybe you are just talking about the eor (end of run)
connections to the outlet. If that's the case, yes, you need the
You are under a serious misconception. The NEC et al, is a set of nationwide
MINIMAL requirements based on the criteria of many different organizations
all pulled together into NEC (NFPA, etc.). MINIMUM is the operative word
there. Many zoning areas management choose to strengthen some parts of it as
they see fit for the demographics of any geographical area they serve. They
use the NEC as the basiis for their requirements and adjust it as they
require for their own specifc needs. The NEC requirements can only be
strengthened, never loosened, by local jurisdiction.
Because you don't see a generic entry in your phone book for local code
enforcement" does not in any way mean that there isn't an office that
dictates what codes must be followed for any particular area. Even ifi all
they have to say is to follow NEC, it is still their responsibility to do
One may have to work thru the phone book from rural, village, town,
county or state, but there IS a governing office for building requirements,
of which NEC is one of them.
In some very rural outlying areas there may not be any enforcement, but
unless the office is vacant, there is a ttle responsible for the zoning.
Most of the time, electrical questions on code requirements are much more
clearly and easily settled with simple phone calls to the zoning offices or
town/county/state responsiblity to get the information directly from those
who enforce it. Very few code requirement questions can ever be faithfully
answered on a newsgroup; though you can get some good suggestions maybe. But
you can NOT get the actual local requirements here since you have no idea
who you're talking to and no idea whether they even are who they say they
That is good advice coming from Twayne, because Twayne's code advice is
It is reassuring to know that Twayne is more familiar with the code
enforcement in RBM's area than Roy is.
The NEC is put together only by the NFPA. It is generally (but not
always) consistent with other organizations regulations and standards.
Complete bull crap.
The NEC has *no* authority except as part or all of it is adopted or
modified by an "authority having jurisdiction". The authority can do
what they want, including "loosening" the NEC. Or no electrical code may
be in effect. If state or lower entities do not adopt a code there is no
code for residential. I believe there is some rather basic electrical in
Why does there have to be? Cite the requirement. Feds? UN? T-party? The
Zoning is not the same as building codes.
The code that is enforced locally is about always based on the NEC.
Most code requirement questions can be faithfully answered on this
newsgroup. There are many people on this newsgroup that are quite
familiar with the NEC. Obviously Twayne is not one of them.
Power factor correction capacitors.
Using a dryer neutral for a ground.
Class 1, 2, 3 transformers.
The first part of that is sorta' true; the last sentence is complete and
utter hogwash. It appears you are the one under a serious
misconception. NEC has no standing other than whatever whichever
jurisdiction in charge choose to give it. It is NOT law nor have any
status such as that. As so, local jurisdictions could choose to ignore
it entirely and do it all on there own or w/ some other basis than NEC.
That they don't is simply reflective that there's no reason to
reinvent the wheel in general not that there's any inviolate mandate or
law the requires it.
And, again, while undoubtedly you're in and have always been in
locations for which that is true doesn't mean it is universal.
As noted, locally there is no code provision at all in the County
outside the 3-mile limit for other than sewer/water.
The county _requests_ that folks do get permits for residential building
but they have no authority in place to require it.
So, theoretically, a business could build a hotel establishment along
a highway somewhere and if it is outside the "3-mile limit" no one
bats an eyelash about it other than where the sewage goes ?
LOL... Sounds _real_ safe...
Or are there exceptions to these exemptions for certain occupancy
types... Given that such places are often only protected by a
volunteer fire department your house will be mostly burnt down by
the time the fire is brought under control...
This is why inspection by government inspectors is something
people should want... The government has no financial interest
in when the work gets signed off, you pay the permitting fees
up front and property taxes if applicable no matter what is on
To leave one private business who has a financial interest in
maintaining a business relationship with an electrician who
installed wiring for a customer of their own and therefore a
financial interest in passing inspection to get paid for the
job and hoping that the first and foremost priority in all
cases is life safety is something you gotta have your head
buried really far into the sand to buy into...
Unless the local government has been bought off by unions or other
special interests who require permitees to spend more than is necessary
on building projects, only to benefit certain trades. Think of all
those fire traps of houses outside of Chicago with wiring that is not in
Wow, you guys may be pros, but you're missing a lot! The requirements of the
NEC cannot be ignored or loosened without case by case investigation and
approval, meaning good reason. Any loosening of the code that's possible is
included IN the NEC itself or its references. The only way to avoid NEC
adherance is to superced the entire context with another, stronger document
with adjustments in areas necessary. Somce California cites are a great
example of this.
Rather than asssting in general, you choose to nit-pick and extoll the
exceptions to the rules, without regard to location or authority, and that
tells me that you are dangerous people to take advice from.
Just for grins, I took this e-mail to our local inspector's office where I
know the inspectors. We went to lunch together (we each paid our own way)
and this was the general concensus:
-- You sound like the type where intent of the requirements isn't your
-- You are the type to cut corners, most likely.
-- Your atttudes are far from what's needed in having the client's benefit
-- And your understanding of the NEC and how/when/where it's applied appears
to be seriously lacking IF you are in a role where they matter to the work
-- I did not know the NEC could be replaced, which they showed me in black
-- I came off as condescending and may have inspired your trollity. Yeah, I
learned a new word!
As for the rest of your trollish BS and silliness, it's been deleted; not
needed for this response.
No, it is *you* who is missing a lot. Try reading.
You're wrong (but I doubt you'll read my post any more than you read others).
The NEC has no special god-given authority. The NFPA is a *private*
non-profit company that publishes a standard that is useful for government
entities to reference in their laws. It is up to the governmental entity with
jurisdiction to include the NEC, subsets of the NEC, or other rules into *its*
laws. The laws do *not* have to include the entire NEC or any other rules.
Absolutely wrong. The cities can write whatever electrical codes they wish.
Usually they reference the NEC because it's easier and they don't have the
expertise of the NFPA. They are usually stricter that the NEC, but there is
no reason they can't be more lax. Often they reference older versions of the
No, you're being told that you're *WRONG*, but you're too pig headed to read.
I'm sure you told them everything that was said here. Yeah, right.
Personally, I'd take the advice from guys like RBM, Bud, and Doug
based on their excellent knowledge of the NEC. And I have on many
occasions. And contrary to your silly claim for the need to always
call the local code office or zoning office, I've seen lots of people
get good sound advice here. To claim that one needs to call the
local code office to know the answer to basic NEC questions is
nonsense. And along the lines of what RBM stated, in some areas of
NJ; which isnt exactly some hillbilly terrritory, some municipalities
use private electrical inspection companies. And those guys are NOT
sitting around answering homeowner questions on how to do electrical
Wrong. The Code describes itself as "contain[ing] provisions that are
considered necessary for electrical safety." Nowhere does it describe itself
as a set of minimum standards. Further, the Code specifically authorizes local
jurisdictions to waive provisions of the Code.
Wrong. The Code is the product of *one* organization, the NFPA.
Wrong; as noted above, local jurisdictions are explicitly permitted under the
Code to waive portions of it if they choose. Further, the Code itself has no
legal force unless adopted as law by a particular jurisdiction -- and nothing
at all prevents a jurisdiction from adopting only part of the Code as law,
should they choose to do so.
It would help a lot more if it were true. Perhaps you should stick to giving
advice on topics you actually know something about, if there are any. This
isn't one of them.
Of course not!, AFAIK, and it should not anyway since NEC is NOT the body
responsible for deciding what is a set of minimal requirements and what is
not. It is, however the MINIMAL requirements for the US fire and personal
safety protection requirements. It may specify say 8 conductors in a certain
box: no more than 8 in a box can be used and still pass the electrical
code. It is not possible for another body to step in and say BS, I'll allow
10, or 12, or 21! It can spec a minimal distance between objects, but as
before that distance can NOT be made less but it CAN be more!
You need to get a grip and actually think about what you're on about
before spewing misinformation to the world, in particular the type that
indicates a final word on a location's requirements can be gotten from this
newsgroup and be as good or better than going to the local controlling
What you are trying to say, and failing to do, and only bringing up
confusion for most who are not familiar wth these areas, is that the NEC
comes from a SMALL part of the NFPA - 70 I think? Not sure but if YOU don't
know, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
The NEC is a set of "regulations" for protection of personnel and
property safety in electrical installations. Except for heavily more
stringent regulations, NOT weaker. Fiber-optics is one such area, but
nit-picking of that kind only serves to dillute the credibility of your own
The NFPA "adopted" NEC and approved by ANSI. I almost defy you to cite
ANY local which has less stringent rules than the NEC unless the artcles
concern something that is Not Applicable to the region. You will find that
even such a case, should it exist, is NOT the end of the line and WILL have
been approved, usually by ANSI. I don't mention the other 3 because I don't
want to do your homework for you.
Urban Renewals has this short, concise definition:
The accepted standard for installation of wiring and associated devices. It
is written by a panel of experts and printed by the National Fire Prevention
Association. Top of Page [Top]
Oh, then how come the NEC calls FOR the NFPA in many sections if IT IS the
NFPA sourced it? It's not uncommon at all to see things like:
? Either of the following listing
A. Underwriters Laboratories
B. FM Global
* Refer to NFPA 220 for definition of non-combustible Type I and II building
** Fine Print Note, Section 450.23, (B)(1) states: "Installations adjacent
to combustible material, fire escapes, or door and window openings may
require additional safeguards such as those listed in Section 450.27. It
says to go to the NFPA for DEFINITIONS, not for rules. The NEC contains the
The NEC is NOT the NFPA! Two different offices, two different functions in
the overall scheme of things.
? Either of the following listing
A. Underwriters Laboratories
B. FM Global
Why are those NEC requirements and not NFPA if you actually know what you're
? Both liquid confinement, and either
of the following listing requirements
A. Underwriters Laboratories
B. FM Global
? Both liquid confinement and auto
? Vault per NEC 450, Part III
* No additional safeguards are required if one or more of Exceptions 1-6 of
Section 450.26, Oil-Insulated Transformers Installed Indoors apply.
The above is so far off base as to make me wonder whether you anything but a
passing familiarity with NEC, NFPA/NEC, ANSI, UL and the other associated
bodies. You CAN build anything you want to, but trying to sell or
installing it, besides negating insurances, is definitely a legal
requirement of any jurisdictional body.
A good example of not having NEC labelling can be found in California:
Without the LosAngeles "Orange" sticker for instance, you aren't going to
sell anything legally. And guess what that entails? Yup; NEC or UL or one of
several other MOU's they carry/allow. But not a single one of them is going
to be less stringent than the NEC Is. NYS is another one, Chicago was going
to something like the "sticker" thing, but I don't know if they have done
So let's get real and talk about the subjects the OP's ASK about, not hair
splitting and silliness such as has gone on thru these last couple days. If
I've bruised your precious ego, that's your problem not mine.
False. You completely misunderstand what the Code is.
Any jurisdiction may, if it wishes, adopt the Code in toto or in part, as law,
and modify it in any way it chooses. The Code has no legal force.
Indeed this is good advice; you should consider following it.
I never said that.
False. The NEC is not a set of regulations at all. It is a set of recommended
practices to ensure electrical safety. It has no regulatory force whatever.
That force comes from laws or ordinances that adopt the Code as the electrical
standard for a particular jurisdiction -- and any jurisdiction is free to
adopt, or not adopt, the Code or any part of it as law as it sees fit.
That's easy enough. There are numerous locales that have *no* electrical code
whatever. That certainly qualifies as "less stringent rules than the NEC".
Completely irrelevant. Read what the NEC says about itself.
You claimed that the NEC consists of "criteria of many different
organizations ... (NFPA etc)." That's not true. The NEC is the product of the
Nobody ever said it was.
Ummm...no. The NFPA is the author of the NEC.
Time to put up, or shut up. Specify what exactly is "off base" in that
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