I have a dead GFCI outlet. Called electrician. Assessment lose connection or broken wire somewhere between breaker box and GFCI outlet. Since this outlet is in kitchen and wires are running behind tile wall I don’t want to damage the tiling. What should be the step by step process to find where the fault is in path from Breaker to GFCI?
Well, start with the most likely, i.e. connections at GFCI. You don't need to break any tiles for this. Remove the old GFCI. Disconnect all 3 wires from the other end at the breaker / fuse box. Use an ohm-meter on all 3 wires. (Will require an additional test wire from box to kitchen.)
Note: To protect ohm-meter, check for voltage before checking for continuity. There should be no voltage.
Must not be much of an electrician. Didn't he do the process to find the bad connection? You have the overhead of the visit, once there most times they should be able to find it pretty easily, unless something unusual is going on, like illegal splices that are inaccessible inside a wall. Plus the electrician should have a sniffer device to help trace the circuit.
Do you know which breaker it's on? If so, start by finding out what else is on that breaker. Find out if everything else works or not. Closest thing that still works, I'd take a look inside there for loose connections. It's basically tracing the route of the circuit from the breaker to the GFCI to find where it's disconnected.
Is it just that GFCI, nothing after it that also does not work? What is the purpose of the GFCI, where is it? That may help figure out what circuit it's on if you don't know it.
GFCI?
How old is the house? Before the 70s they would sometimes have other loads on the kitchen circuits. Trader is right, look for any other load on that circuit that either works with the breaker on, not off or that is dead. Look in that box for a bad connection. Other than that it might be easier to fish in a new wire.
Wires VERY seldom fail. Isolate what outlets are on the breaker in question. Check connections in all boxes on the circuit. Connect a lamp socket to the wires in place of the GFCI to tell when the circuit is live. If you need to check actual conductos, detach them from the breaker and connect all 3 conductoes together at the service box, then check continuity at the box from wire to wire. If you have connectivity neutral to ground and not neutral to live or white to live you KNOW the problem is on the Live wire. Pretty easy to pin it down.
Thanks a lot for advice.
Yeah that was pretty much useless. Charged $150 for 5 minutes to tell me what I already knew. Anything further he wanted to open up the wall.
This is one of the two GFCIs in the kitchen. The other one is working fine. GFCI that is dead is on a separate breaker which I have isolated. GFCI is protecting four other outlets. And they are all dead. I opened up all 4 outlets and pretty much checked each of them for loose wire/ connections etc and they all seem to be fine.
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Except for the infamous "6 penny fade" (more often a drywall screw these days). The actual failure might show up years later when that nicked wire finally blows open. If it is the neutral, nobody would have even noticed the "tingle" and being on the line side of the GFCI you get no help there.
Any idea where the incoming cable routes from? If it's the first receptacle in a kitchen and it protects others, then good chance the incoming run is from the breaker without another receptacle or switch box in between. Can you find the cable in a basement, going to the kitchen? They have detectors that will tell you if a cable is energized to help you trace it. Or start tracing the cable from the breaker, if that's possible. Any renovations done, where it would be likely that a cable could have been cut, then spliced? If someone did that inside a wall where it's not supposed to be, it could be hidden. Agree with Gfre, if you can't find the problem, the other solution is to run a new circuit to the GFCI receptacle. Just be sure you've checked all other receptacles, lights, etc anywhere nearby to make sure they aren't on the existing circuit, that all that is there are what's downstream of the GFCI with no power. If there are none, then a new run from the panel, or from where you can find the existing circuit, eg in the basement near the kitchen, to the GFCI could be the way to go.
Yes, we don't even know if it's the hot or the neutral that's open. I hope the OP has the skills to do the testing. How easy this is to fix depends on how accessible the wiring is. If a box with a loose connection can't be found, then like you say, easiest is probably to run a new piece of cable to the GFCI and either cut the existing cable off near the kitchen if that's possible, or run a new cable all the way from the breaker, if that's easier.
Breaker
If this is an older house I still would not give up on another receptacle or light in that circuit on the line side of the GFCI and it may be a Harry Homeowner Special in the basement attic or crawlspace.
The problem will NOT be downstream of the GFI. The problem will be between the gfi and the panel. Did the horon electrician open the box and determine FOR SURE that there is no power coming TO the GFI? I would pull the plate and the outlet and check for power TO the GFI. I'd almost bet in this case youhave a bad GFI - - - -
Agree, which is why I said the OP should be sure all receptacles, lights, etc that are anywhere near the kitchen all work with the breaker for the bad circuit both on and off.
Bootleg, outlets lighting or receptacle may be in strange places. That is why I suggested the attic, crawlspace or basement. Look for something out of the ordinary, a plastic box if the rest of them are metal or some staples pulled loose to drag up a little extra wire for a box. When someone is cheating on the 6" "free conductor" thing, it is easy to make a bad splice.
V. Good point. Always check for voltage first.
Just one amendment. If the most likely location is teh connection at the GFCI, then there will be voltage there one the wires.
Also, it's probably not necesary to remove the wires to check each for voltage, unless the connections are backstabbed and there is no wire showing, only insulation.
Wow. Thanks for saving me 150 some time in the future. Wait. Was 150 his service call and he didn't use a sniffer, or he said he did but didn't tell you anything.
Breakers fail. Outlets sometimes fail. Connections fail. What afaik is least likely to fail are the wires in bewtween the breaker and the outlet.
So it's the breaker, not the outlets.
I didn't read the above line closely, and my conclusion was unwarranted by the statement above. However there are still lots of tests described already to narrow down the problem and I doubt it's in the walls.
After 5 minutes, his next step should not have been to open the walls like he claimed.
Thanks all for the valuable suggestions. So far this is what I have done:
We did not have any renovations etc or any electrical work done. House was built in 2011.
My next step is to trace path from breaker box to GFCI and see if anything obvious is on the way.
Just to be absolutely certain, I'd open the panel and just double-check at the outlet of that breaker for voltage and connections before I went any further afield...
Presuming the guy wasn't complete maroon you'll just confirm what he told you, but just in case...save chasing a non-symptom. I probably would go to the point of actually putting a load on the outlet of that breaker with a test lamp besides just the voltage leads on the VOM.
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IDK about 5 mins, but it's possible he could arrive at the conclusion that it's likely inside the wall quickly. For example, if he used a non-contact voltage tester to determine that there is voltage at the cable in a basement, right where it goes up into the walls where the kitchen GFCI is and there are no other boxes around that it could go to.
But even then, it's likely easier to just cut the cable there and run a new segment to the GFCI instead of opening walls.
Is there a basement that's unfinished? If so, I'd just start with a non-contact tester and see if you can find the cable where it goes into the kitchen. No need to trace it all the way to the panel if it's live there. Same idea if it feeds from an attic, etc.
Since it's new construction, the possibility of a nail or similar damage being done to the cable inside a wall increases greatly. Not likely there is an illegal splice inside a wall, though I suppose a construction guy could have screwed it and patched it illegally.
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