On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 7:26:45 PM UTC-5, Big Giant Head wrote:
I would say it's ridiculous, if one is even still available.
Have you looked at tax credits, utility rebates, etc available
that reduce the cost of a new high-eff system? Those can make
a high eff one cost the same or less than a 80% efficient one.
Calculated how much a year you will save in gas and electric?
AC involved too? How much you will save per year with a 14 SEER
instead of a 26 year old that may be running at 8?
Hey, I had a Lennox dealer out last night and he strongly discouraged a HE
because the machine is going in an interior closet and the PVC pipe(s)
would have to pass through about 3-4 ft of unheated attic crawl space.
Said the condensation could freeze up. He was pushing an 80% but with
variable valve and DC variable blower. The Carrier / Payne dealer did not
have any issue with with the piping situation.
I may just say screw it and get a simple 80% and call it a day. Not doing
new air at this time.
On Thursday, December 5, 2013 12:30:02 PM UTC-5, Big Giant Head wrote:
I'd say the Lennox guy is BS. I just checked a Rheem installation
manual and it says that the pipe needs to be covered in 1" of
insulation if it's run through unheated spaces where below
freezing temps are expected. And that if water could collect,
it should have heat tape applied. I don't know how the latter
could occur, given that the pipe has to slope downward, back
to the furnace. Given that the colder it gets, the more the
furnace runs, it's hard to see how it's going to freeze up
and block the vent pipes if you put some decent insulation
Around here, nyc area huge numbers of houses have furnaces
in the attic with 4 ft+ pipe runs and I haven't heard
of any problems. Of course if your attic gets down to 0,
that might present a problem. But if it is a problem in
your area, you would think all the installers would be telling
you about it. The alternative is you might have a contractor
that would rather do a quick switch install, instead of having
to run the vent pipes.
What price differences are you seeing between 80 and 93%?
Factor in any tax credits, rebates from utilities, etc?
I guess that's an option if they can do the job without
removing the existing evaporator. If they can't and have to
evacuate, open, purge, recharge, etc then given all that cost,
with a 25 year old AC, going to new AC at the same time would
seem a more sensible path to me.
Maybe it's a case of CYA. They're offering 10 years parts + 10 years
labor on the simple furnace. 15 / 15 on the fancy 80% variable speed.
HX is 20 on both. They promise 2 hr response time day or night and if
they can't fix it in 24 hrs they pay the hotel. A+ on BBB & Angie's list
award winning so they probably do have good service (not that I verified
these assertions but I'll take their word).
Carrier / Payne dealer offers only 5 years parts + 1 year labor. 20
I don't know what part of that stems from the mfg and what part is from
the dealer. Does Lennox have better warranty?
Wish I could get the long warranty on the fancy machine; it would make me
feel better but I presume if I insisted on it with Lennox he'd probably
say you're on your own after a minimal warranty. Or at the very least
exclude ice buildup! I would, if I had his concerns.
80% Conventional 90,000 BTU/H Carrier $2450.
Likewise but branded Payne $2250.
80% 2-stage 90,000 BTU/H Carrier $2850.
95% 80,000 BTU/H Carrier $3250.
80% 70,000 Conventional $2400.
80% 70.000 Variable $3715.
The latter is a lot for non high efficiency (which he didn't offer).
I could not actually accept the Lennox bids as is since it says 70,000
but maybe that's just an writing error. If we stay at 80% and assume the
90,000 is fine and decent duty cycles even in below zero weather, then we
need the same size. Dropping a notch if we go higher efficency of
It's under the furnace so it can stay put. It should probably get a
little cleaning. It would still be logical to replace the whole thing I
know. It's really mostly about not having to think about that. I can
barely decide on a furnace.
What is your requirement for furnace size? It has to be properly sized.
Over or undersized furnace is not a good thing. Proper, right sized
one gives highest efficiency. What is the size of old one? I am good
with Carrier always because Carrier parts are very easy to get.
They can't fix it in 24 hours mean lack of needed parts not serious
break down. Furnace is not really complex electric/electronic/mechanical
The current 80% Bryant is 90,000 BTU/H input. I'm going to presume that's
the right size unless someone tells me otherwise. Obviously, it could
absolutely be wrong all these years but I've never noticed it not keeping
up on the coldest days nor during normally cold winter days does it have
extremely short cycles. Lennox guy did walk around and see the place,
count vents, and so forth but never said oh, you should be at 70K so I'm
guessing that was a write-o. I didn't notice it until after he'd left. If
I do talk to him again that will be the first question.
Carrier - Payne guy just went with the 90K but then again I was asking
about replacing what was there. Alas, his paper work doesn't mention model
I've repaired the current unit over the years. Inducer board, gas valve,
inducer motor. But aren't new ones more complex with expensive
microprocessor boards, and trouble codes, especially the HE ones?
Seriously thinking of pulling off those parts on the old one when it goes.
Either to eBay them or just to keep for sentimental value since I put them
Nobody offered a single stage residential furnace with a low enough
BTU rating to be optimal for our house - the low flame output of the
dual stage I ended up buying is pretty close to "right-sized" - the
smallest I could buy other than an R/V furnace.
I had my old 80% efficiency Carrier(130K BTU) to 96% 100K BTU 2 stage
one for 4 grand minus wiring and thermostat. I hooked it up and
installed wireless thermostat, CO detector myself.
Installer did all the rest to my 100% satisfaction. Passed inspection.
Actually it is season for demand so price seems steep.
Over half the installed furnaces around here are at least 50%
oversized - 30 to 40 year old houses.. What I installed is a
35/50kbtu, replacing a 75kbtu originally installed. Just about every
house on the street had the same original furnace, wheather 2 storey,
bungalow, or split level from 2000 to 4500 sq ft.
On Friday, December 6, 2013 3:29:06 PM UTC-5, email@example.com wrote:
n 12/5/2013 9:28 PM, Big Giant Head wrote: > >> Carrier guy: >> >> 80% Conv
entional 90,000 BTU/H Carrier $2450. >> Likewise but branded Payne $2250. >
$3250. >> Payne $3050. >> >> Lennox Guy: >> >> 80% 70,000 Conventional $24
00. >> 80% 70.000 Variable $3715. >> >> The latter is a lot for non high ef
ficiency (which he didn't offer). >> >> I could not actually accept the Len
nox bids as is since it says 70,000 >> but maybe that's just an writing err
or. If we stay at 80% and assume the >> 90,000 is fine and decent duty cycl
es even in below zero weather, then we >> need the same size. Dropping a no
tch if we go higher efficiency of >> course. > >Assuming you are 80% that m
akes sense, but are you? I'd ask the guy why >he is quoting a smaller unit.
It does seem odd that he would quote that >much smaller. Over half the ins
talled furnaces around here are at least 50% oversized - 30 to 40 year old
houses.. What I installed is a 35/50kbtu, replacing a 75kbtu originally ins
talled. Just about every house on the street had the same original furnace,
wheather 2 storey, bungalow, or split level from 2000 to 4500 sq ft.
One advantage to having it somewhat oversized is that you can get
fast recovery from setback. If you're away for a few days, have it
set low, when you get home you can have the house warmed up in less time.
You obviously don't want it way oversized, so that it's short cycling,
but I'd rather err on the side of a bit too big than the other way around.
I replaced a 25 year old 150K btu with 120K 93%. In retrospect, based
on the run times, I could easily have used a 90K too, but I'm happy
with the faster heat up times.
d here are at least 50% oversized - 30 to 40 year old houses.. What I installed is a 35/50kbtu, replacing a 75kbtu originally installed. Just about every house on the street had the same original furnace, wheather 2 storey, bungalow, or split level from 2000 to 4500 sq ft.
It better be 2 stage one, ours mostly run on 1st stage, this morning it
is -31C outside with ice crystals in the air, furnace is going full
blast coming back up from set back during the night.
Oversized furnaces suffer in the efficiency department. Undersized
furnaces just take a little longer to warm up a house, unless the wind
blows straight through like Stormy's trailer. Furnace efficiency
doesn't mean anything at all in a situation like that anyway.
On 12/7/2013 10:55 AM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
I think a bit over sized isn't good. In the case
of my drafty trailer, I can always light a couple
stove burners if the furnace isn't keeping up.
Works out, OK. I went from 80k to 70k when I replaced,
and the 70k does fine. Of course, some cellulose in the
ceiling helps, a lot.
He said recently. IIRC it's around 1200ft^2, two story. Yes, pretty
small. I lived in Burlington VT (somewhat North of ON, where he
lives), in a ~1700ft^2 Cape Cod (a pretty efficient design). The
furnace was 150KBTU and in the coldest weather it was constantly
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