CFL questions

[Lee B]

I still have a bunch of "regular" bulbs left, but I'm buying CFLs as they run out. So I have several questions that I know the more technically inclined people here can answer. I did try to google for answers, but found conflicting answers to some. (I'm willing to "experiment"; just don't understand the diff enough to know if I'll damage lamps/modules).

1 - Can I use them upside down? Like in a recessed ceiling light, which I keep putting off changing because I hate step ladders.

2 - X-10? I know I read that they work with the appliance modules, but do any work with the lamp modules?

3 - Ceiling fans - I have one that takes the little intermediate base bulbs that are difficult enough to find. Do they make CFL versions? And also curious, the fan manufacturer says not to use >40 watt bulbs, but since the CFLs use less electricity, can I use a brighter bulb?

4 - "Touch" lamps - would CFLs work with them? The lamps I have let you adjust the brightness by how many times you tap the base.

[Ed Pawlowski]

"Lee B" wrote

Yes, I've done it with many of them. Some say no on the package, but they worked and lasted a long time. The long life in hard to reach places is a big "plus" for the CFL.

Yes. Some though, give a slight flashing when turned off. I'm not sure why but someone probably will explain it.

I never looked. Don't know.

And

should be able to.

There are dimmable CFL's but I've not tried them.

[Kurt Ullman]

The 40 w restriction is related to fire hazard. Since the CFLs give off less heat, the OP should be okay to go at least the next set up. I don't if there is any place to compare the heat given off.

[Nate Nagel]

I have. I really wanted them to work but none did. Supposedly there are special dimmers that are supposed to work with one particular brand/model of CFL (Sylvania I think?) but they are not available in any stores near me and I spent enough money trying all different brands of supposedly dimmable CFLs and they ranged from awful to bad. I think the best were the Sylvanias and they dimmed OK but only down to about 50% brightness, and also caused my electronic dimmers to hum which wasn't reassuring. The awful ones would flicker instead of dimming, making them pretty much useless. They all also had odd color changes when dimming, instead of becoming "warmer" when dimmed as we've become used to with incandescents. I still am using incandescents in dimmed fixtures and it makes me mildly guilty about the waste of energy, but there isn't yet a viable alternative IMHO.

nate

[A. Baum]

Don't use a CFL with anything that dims. I've seen CFLs advertised as dimmable but understanding the electronics of how a dimmer actually dims a bulb I don't understand how you could make a CFL dimmable. I would only use a remote controlled on/off device that had a relay with a CFL and not a triac/diac switch. I haven't seen a candle based CFL yet but that doesn't mean they aren't being made.

[Robert Neville]

Read the packaging. Generally, the high wattage CFLs are not allowed to mount base up.

[willshak]

Lee B wrote the following:

I have a number of 13 watt cfls in ceiling fixtures, from the porcelain garage type, to surface mounted bathroom type, to ceiling can lights, even those with lenses or covers. .

They come with standard, medium, and candelabra bases. The 40 watt limit is to prevent overheating of the fixture, cfls are cooler than incandescents. I have a desk lamp next to me that has a unvented half round metal cover, and when I had a 55 watt miser incandescent in it, the temp of the cover reached around 115F. I have a 13 watt cfl in it now and the temp of the metal cover is around 80F.

Don't know. I don't have any touch lamps.

[Bob]

X-10 and CFLs can be a hit-or-miss proposition. With an appliance module, the load sensing feature that automatically turns it on gets confused by the power being drawn. You signal the X-10 to turn off and it turns back on in a few seconds. One workaround is to have a 4-watt night light connected parallel to the CFL. Lamp modules also have dimming capability. They may work with CFLs, but the ballast will fail prematurely.

[Doug Miller]

In article , Lee B wrote: [...]

Don't use a bulb that consumes more than 40 watts. A CFL that puts out as much light as a 100-watt incandescent uses only 23 watts.

[Twayne]

Yes. Heat output is minimal. As long as the light allows for some air flow and isn't completely closed up.

Yes but ... use the lamp modules made for flourescents. And you have to have, I think a 40W mnimum load. The wrong module or too little load will cause squirrelly things to happen most of the time. Some get away with it, others find the life of their modules shortened seriously.

Not that I know of but can't hurt to look around.

And also curious, the fan

You go by the current they SPEC on the package. If it's a 20W equivalent to

60W, then you are using 20W. So use a 20W CFL & theoretiically get more light. I've found the wattage equivalents to be a bunch of crap, BTW.

Not sure what would happen but don't put them on an X10; IME damage to the controller AND touch capacitor can happen. X10 stuff is great but you have to use it per their own specs. I've only had problems with "misapplications" of X10 stuff. I like to play.

HTH,

Twayne`

[clare]

Candelebra and mini candelabra are available from some specialty shops but they are NOT CHEAP - and the ones I've seen looked like heck and didn't last long.

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

It's more that the load sensing. An X10 "receptacle module" does not have the load sensing "feature", but still passes a little current when off.

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

I have a couple of fans that require those short bulbs (glass over light doesn't allow full size bulb). What I'm using is "Sylvania micro-mini". I'm not sure if this is a model number, but what's next to the UPC is "CF13EL/MICRO/2RP". Light Output: 825 lumens (60W equivalent), uses 13W.

[snip]

[Nate Nagel]

It may *use* a little current, but I believe that there is an actual mechanical relay in there, at least based on the solid "click" that I hear when mine activates. Granted, it is probably 20 years old now, don't know if the design has changed since. (been using it as an "alarm clock" hooked up to a real radio for years, as I find that the buzzer in a typical alarm clock seems to be a consumable item that generally loses enough volume to be ineffective for its intended purpose after a year or so. Plus, the ability to also have a light on the timer is nice as well.)

Not completely related question - is there a X10 timer/alarm clock available with a 7-day program? I currently am using a "Neverlate Executive" alarm clock and love the programmability but, as usual, I find that the alarm buzzer is dying, and the radio reception is poor. My 20-year-old X10 thing only has a daily program, not a 7-day program.

nate

[Mark Lloyd]

[snip]

If you look at a schematic (here's one for an appliance module:

) you can see circuitry bypassing the relay.

Anyway, my on-when-"off" CFL disagrees with that "relay only" theory.

[snip]

[Robert Neville]

Absolutely... I bought a very expensive 150w equivalent CFL for a windowless shower, enclosed ceiling fixture. It was great while it lasted, but only lasted about a week before burning out. Reread the packaging and noticed that mounting base up was not allowed.

[FatterDumber& Happier Moe]

I just changed out two CFLs because they crapped out. One of them is a Secure-light indoor/outdoor 20W (nade in China)and has an energy star, I probably bought it at dollar general. The other is a GE 26 watt FLE 26HT3/2/SW get ready for this, also made in China! I have no idea how long they lasted, they are from the over the sink light fixture what uses three horizontal sockets and no cover. I replaced them with a couple of 23w Sylvania CFLs from ALDi's 1.49 each. Getting them out of the package was the hardest part of that light bulb changing job. I see both old ones have a burnt color where the glass meets the base. Looks like the GE had some little vent holes in it. I guess I saved some money somewhere along the line with them, at least that's what they tell me. Main thing I like about them is when I forget and leave the lights on I don't feel compelled to go turn them off. I may take a hammer to the bases and crack them open to see what failed where.

[HerHusband]

Hi Lee,

It depends on the bulb. Many CFL's won't last long if mounted upside down or in an enclosed fixture. I installed some in our enclosed ceiling lights and they only lasted about a month before burning out.

However, in recent years, I have been buying inexpensive "N:Vision" CFL bulbs at Home Depot (made in China of course) that work fine in our enclosed fixtures. I also use them upside down in our outdoor porch lights with no problems.

Also, you may want to look into LED lights for your recessed ceiling lights.

I don't know about X-10, but my CFL's work fine with our "Insteon" relay switches (just on/off, no dimming). The Insteon switches recognize X-10 codes, but have been a lot more reliable for us.

We don't have lights in our ceiling fan, so can't help with that one. I think the vibration would be a bigger problem than anything. As for the brighter bulb, I routinely install "75 watt equivalent" CFL bulbs in fixtures rated for 60 watts. They draw far less energy than the original

60 watts, and don't produce anywhere near the heat of a 60 watt bulb.

We don't have any touch lamps, but I would assume you would need CFL's designed for dimming.

Like you, I have replaced most bulbs in our house with CFL's. The exceptions are fixtures with exposed bulbs (dining and kitchen pendant lights), or rooms we rarely turn lights on (hallway, laundry, etc.). I would really like to install CFL's or LED's in our living room, but they are all wall sconces with exposed bulbs on a remote controlled dimmer. So far I haven't found an "attractive" CFL that supports electronic dimmers.

Anthony

[Robert Neville]

No, I brought it back to the place of purchase and told them it prematurely failed - not anywhere near the thousands of hours promised on the package.

When reading the replacement package, I noticed the icon that indicated not to mount base up.

[Edward Reid]

I once used some Sylvania CFLs in an enclosed fixture. The package said (yes, I read it before using!) not to use the bulb in an "enclosed recessed fixture", which I took to mean both recessed (and therefore insulated) and enclosed.

After a few months, the base melted down. I contacted Sylvania, talked with someone who requested that I mail in the bulb for evaluation (but not feedback), and I did. Later I corresponded by email with someone else who said I should not use the bulb in an enclosed fixture. I asked several times about the conflict between that advice and the package instructions, and never got an answer.

I quit using Sylvania CFLs.

Like another poster, I've found the HD n-vision (I think they changed the name recently) to be reliable.

The rating is to protect the fixture from overheating AND the fixture's wiring from overload. Thus you use the actual power (watts), not the light output (lumens or incandescent W equivalent) to judge whether you can use the bulb.

However, related to the question about recessed fixtures, note that CFLs are more sensitive to heat than incandescents, so if the fixture is enclosed, it's possible for the CFL to overheat where an incandescent would be OK (albeit at a higher temperature), although the fixture itself would be OK.

Philosophically, this is similar to the fact that your circuit breakers are there to protect the wiring, not to protect you from electrical shock. The fixture rating protects the fixture and wiring, not the bulb.

Edward