Breaker panel questions

[Bob(but not THAT Bob)]

When the mfr specifies the max. # of breaker poles, are the 2 poles on the main breaker considered in the total?

Is it kosher to wirenut 2 wires together and pigtail to a breaker

within< a panelboard?

[Joe]

wirenuts are a no-no within a panelboard where I am. Check your local codes.

[fftt]

wire nuts in the panel are a no-no......I would wager that, that prohibtion is nearly universal

that&#39;s why I usually install a LARGE box near any main or sub I install......gives a place to do this sort of thing and still be code compliant

cheers Bob

[gfretwell]

That is not true at all. You are allowed to splice in a panelboard enclosure. The issue is "fill" and a wirenut has a fill adder of zero.

[fftt]

could you explain further?

tia Bob

[John Grabowski]

No.

Yes although some circuit breakers such as QO and CH are rated for two conductors under one terminal.

[Joe]

could you explain further?

tia Bob

I would also be very interested in some more detail on this.

jc

[Tom Horne]

Here is the applicable section of the code with emphasis in the form of capitalization provided by me.

373-8. Enclosures for Switches or Overcurrent Devices Enclosures for switches or overcurrent devices shall not be used as junction boxes, auxiliary gutters, or raceways for conductors feeding through or tapping off to other switches or overcurrent devices, UNLESS adequate space for this purpose is provided. The conductors shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 40 percent of the cross-sectional area of the space, and the conductors, splices, and taps shall not fill the wiring space at any cross section to more than 75 percent of the cross-sectional area of that space.

Modern panel cabinets have plenty of room for splices. When an inspector tells me I cannot have a splice in the panel I politely ask for chapter and verse. The one inspector who refused to provide it was readily overruled as "arbitrary and capricious" by the appeals board. The board was not the least bit interested in the details. His failure to provide chapter and verse was sufficient. The others hung their hats on the article quoted here. They all changed their position once they were questioned on how the splice actually violated the article. There is no basis in the code for forbidding the use of any listed or recognized materials in an enclosure unless it is actually overfilled by calculation of the cross sectional area of the gutter and the cross sectional area of the wires contained therein. This article is broadly over cited by inspectors. The real issue is the training and certification of inspectors.

-- Tom Horne

[Bob(but not THAT Bob)]

Thanks - things were getting tight and wanted to be sure

If that&#39;s done throughout, wouldn&#39;t there be an excess of grounds and neutrals - too many for the ground bar?

[gfretwell]

That&#39;s why they sell supplemental ground busses. Just be sure not to put neutrals on the ground bus. Keep neutrals on the neutral bus move excess grounds over to the new ground bus..

[John Grabowski]

*Yeah that could happen, but usually you don&#39;t wire a panel that way. The grounds can sometimes be doubled up, but not the neutrals. As someone else said it is possible to install a supplemental ground bar.